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  • #16
    Meeker are you having a hard time excepting the fact that all who disagreed with omentum therapy as the next coming have helped you see beyond the one or two positive results and made you look and see the other hundreds if not thousands of results that show no difference than just untethering/decompression surgery. DR Kao and the shark esc therapy have their one or two great success stories like omentum does but also have their hundreds if not thousands who found no positive results. meaker their are even a few success stories from people who had no therapies or surges who now walk. KEEP LOOKING BEYOND THE 1 OR 2 AND SEE THE HUNDREDS OF OTHERS meeker.

    Best of luck to you meeker



    LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!
    LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!http://spamhate.com/beerchug.gifhttp://spamhate.com/affection.gifhttp://spamhate.com/bondage.sml.gifhttp://spamhate.com/sperm.sml.gifhttp://www.spamhate.com/wav.gifhttp://spamhate.com/banghead.gif

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    • #17
      why do you have to spend all thay money on a bike when you can go to sears and get a bike for uder a $100 that you can use your arms to help pedal? I know that not all the people can use their arms or even hold their feet on the pedals. You screw shoes to the pedals so your feet don't come off. Then you get family friends to help with balance and pedaling. I think you would be surpise at how much you can pedal on your own. This is what we did with my son. In the beginning he could only go 3/4 away around without any help then as he got better with balance we didn't have hold up top. Then he stated to you his arms to help pedal. Now he can ride for 3to 4 miles and only use his arms when he is stuck or is getting weak near the end. I don't think that we have to spend thounsands of dollars to do exerise at home. Just look around your house for things to use. I build him a total gym for under $50.
      "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." — Abraham Lincoln

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes Foster

        Great Idea if one is incomplete and one still has function in their legs. If not, the only way you are going to get meaningful excercise to the legs is via a FES bike.

        "Life is about how you
        respond to not only the
        challenges you're dealt but
        the challenges you seek...If
        you have no goals, no
        mountains to climb, your
        soul dies".~Liz Fordred
        "Life is about how you
        respond to not only the
        challenges you're dealt but
        the challenges you seek...If
        you have no goals, no
        mountains to climb, your
        soul dies".~Liz Fordred

        Comment


        • #19
          Honesty

          Just looking for some clarity on the following statement:


          'Rummerfield, who incorporated exercise into his recovery but did not use an FES bicycle, said McDonald's work "is light years ahead of anything that's ever been produced."

          Steve Petrofsky of Electrologic has very carefully explained the history of the development of the FES bikes. I am just curious as how one can be light years ahead when they are using older versions of Petrofsky bikes. Inquiring minds want to know!

          God Bless

          Arnie Fonseca, Jr
          Neuro Institute

          Comment


          • #20
            ?? Arnie

            Supply a link or full text of an article, if possible. You appear to be taking words and phrases out of nowhere and it is difficult to know what the meaning really is. Is this article available on the Internet? If so, please post a hyperlink. I would love to read the article in its entirity.

            "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
            It's already tomorrow in Australia!"----- Charles Schultz

            Every day I wake up is a good one

            Comment


            • #21
              Well, once again meeker your being short sighted and focusing on the wrong thing (how many bikes could be bought with 750k) and not looking at the larger picture. Please read what Carl wrote again and try to understand it this time.

              meeker, yes you could take the $750,000 and purchase 50 or so bikes and help 50 people. But after those 50, you would be back to square one with the other 250,000 people who also need the bikes. By conducting the trial that Dr. McDonald wants to do and documenting the results for the medical community and the insurance community, hopefully we can help the entire community and not just a few people here and there. Yes, it will probably take a little longer. . . But it will help many more in the long run
              You state the testing has already been done and why do it again? Its simple, the testing done currently wasn't focused on changing what insurance/medicare will cover or provide for the majority of SCI.

              If you need help understanding any thing please feel free to e-mail me. I would like to help you because these are important issues to me.



              LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!
              LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!http://spamhate.com/beerchug.gifhttp://spamhate.com/affection.gifhttp://spamhate.com/bondage.sml.gifhttp://spamhate.com/sperm.sml.gifhttp://www.spamhate.com/wav.gifhttp://spamhate.com/banghead.gif

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              • #22
                Clearing things up

                In context: Thank you for correcting me on my accuracy.

                God Bless

                Arnie Fonseca, Jr
                Neuro Institute


                McDonald: High-tech bike helps paralyzed in recovery
                Wash U. neurologist out to prove activity can stimulate new cell growth
                Margie Manning

                http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/s...15/focus4.html

                Research by neurologist Dr. John McDonald III could help spinal cord injury patients recover some of their lost functions by riding a specially designed exercise bicycle in their own homes.



                McDonald, 38, assistant professor of neurology at Washington University and director of the spinal cord injury unit at Barnes-Jewish Hospital, is beginning clinical trials on the Functional Electrical Stimulation (FES) Bicycle. The bicycle, built to hold a paralyzed person, includes a computer that stimulates nerves in key muscle groups, allowing patients to ride the bicycle under their own muscle power.



                McDonald said early data from his clinical work indicates patients who use the bicycle for one hour at a time, three times a week, can avoid many of the physical complications associated with spinal cord injuries, while animal research in the lab shows the activity can stimulate new cell growth and activity.



                "What we've found so far is compelling evidence that this program can enhance recovery of function," McDonald said.



                He has just completed research in a "worst-case scenario" -- a patient who was injured more than five years ago.



                Hospitals, Insurance

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                Until now, it's been accepted wisdom that if patients haven't recovered within two years of the injury, they won't recover. But McDonald's work could change that thinking.



                "In this case we took someone five years out from their injury, with the highest level and worst injury possible, and we showed that we can reverse that person to the point where they are 60 percent to 70 percent of normal," he said.



                He's about to begin a broader clinical trial with 120 patients. They will take part using FES bicycles at McDonald's lab, but he hopes to increase participation by getting some of the bicycles into patients' homes.



                Until now, that's been cost prohibitive. The bicycle was originally designed in the late 1970s for acutely injured people who might be able to recover in the first couple of months, but was not intended for people who have had their injuries for a long period of time. Only about 700 of the bicycles have been produced in the past 25 years, and they cost about $14,000 to $16,000 each, McDonald said.



                McDonald is working with a manufacturing group whom he declined to identify to redesign the bicycle and reduce the cost by as much as 50 percent.



                "The goal is to demonstrate to insurance companies that this is a cost-effective approach, so they will pay for it," McDonald said.



                Currently, insurance companies will pay for rehabilitation on the bicycle in only about half of McDonald's cases.



                But Patrick Rummerfield, director of performance assessment for the spinal cord injury program at Washington University School of Medicine, said there's a huge potential cost savings for insurance companies because of the physical benefits of FES bicycle therapy. Those physical benefits include building muscle mass and preventing skin breakdown, decreasing spasms that are typically treated with medication, building bone density to prevent osteoporosis and bone fractures, and enhancing bloodflow and cardiovascular activity.



                "One bone fracture costs $70,000 for hospital treatment. Skin breakdown can cost $60,000. A bladder infection can run in the tens of thousands of dollars," Rummerfield said. "If you can get the cost down, hopefully the insurance companies will realize this is saving them a lot of money."



                Rummerfield also said the benefits to the patient are "unbelievable." He should know. Rummerfield, injured in a car crash in 1974, is the first quadriplegic to regain full use of his body. Since recovering, he's completed a triathlon and holds the land speed record for an electric car.



                Rummerfield, who incorporated exercise into his recovery but did not use an FES bicycle, said McDonald's work "is light years ahead of anything that's ever been produced."



                Funding for McDonald's work has come primarily from private donations so far. He's just begun to apply for federal grants and for grants from the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Foundation to pay for the research project, which he said will cost about $750,000 a year.



                Researchers who work with McDonald include Dr. Daniel Becker and Charlie Li, who have worked on demonstrating the role of physical activity in cell regeneration; Dr. Christina Sadowsky, a specialist in spinal cord injuries; Linda Schultz, clinical nurse specialist; and Jenny Edrington, who is coordinating the clinical trials.



                More information about the trials is available at the spinal cord injury


                program's Web site, http://www.neuro . wustl.edu/sci.

                mmanning@bizjournals.com
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Posts: 2555 | From: Montreal,Province of Quebec, CANADA | Registered: Jul 25, 2001

                Comment


                • #23
                  Dr. McDonald

                  Tell us about the bike that you intend to revolutionize the SCI world with. Show us the evidence that clinical trials on your bike have better outcomes.
                  Faster, cheaper, better did not work well on the space shuttle.
                  Explain how it is that you are the first to discover that intense rehab is a good thing, when this intense rehab has been going (by other's) for years.
                  Explain why you used a Therapeutic Alliance bike to represent the bike you have supposedly developed in the OneStep (Autumn 2002 pp. 2) news letter.

                  The OneStep article states:
                  "Research by neurologist Dr. John McDonald III could help spinal cord injury patients recover some of their lost functions by riding a specially designed exercise bicycle in their own homes."

                  This is not new. This has been known for years and does not need to be tested to prove it's validity.

                  The OneStep article states:
                  "McDonald, 38, assistant professor of neurology at Washington University and director of the spinal cord injury unit at Barnes-Jewish Hospital, is beginning clinical trials on the Functional Electrical Stimulation (FES) Bicycle. The bicycle, built to hold a paralyzed person, includes a computer that stimulates nerves in key muscle groups, allowing patients to ride the bicycle under their own muscle power."

                  This is not new. This has been known and used successfully for years. More tests are not going to make it "new."

                  The OneStep article states:
                  "McDonald said early data from his clinical work indicates patients who use the bicycle for one hour at a time, three times a week, can avoid many of the physical complications associated with spinal cord injuries"

                  This is not at all new as this study from 1992 indicates.

                  Ferguson AC Keating JF Delargy MA Andrews BJ
                  Reduction of seating pressure using FES in patients with spinal cord injury. A preliminary report.
                  In: Paraplegia (1992 Jul) 30(7):474-8

                  "The aim of this study was to investigate the use of functional electrical stimulation (FES) as a means of pressure sore prevention in seated spinal cord injured (SCI) subjects. Nine SCI subjects took part in tests in which electrical stimulation was applied to the quadriceps with the lower legs restrained. Ischial pressures were measured during periods of quiet sitting and FES application. A strain gauged lever arm was used to measure the knee moment during quadriceps stimulation. The average pressure drop at the right and left buttocks was 44 mmHg and 27 mmHg respectively. In general the greatest reductions occurred in subjects with larger knee moments; however, there was no direct relationship between the pressure reduction obtained and the quadriceps strength. This form of FES may be useful as a prophylactic aid in the management of pressure sores in SCI subjects."
                  For more studies about FES and it's effectivness look at the wealth of information on past studies at. www.http://electrologic.com/physcmr.htm

                  What is the make and model # of the bike you are using to collect this "clinical data", Dr. McDonald. This cannot be "your" bike as your bike is not in production, at least not at the time of "early clinical trials."

                  Show proof that this Rummerfield guy is a completely recovered Quad and explain your role in his recovery. I'm sure that a case of complete recovery such as this, is written about extensively in Medical Journals all over the world. Please cite the documentation for us.

                  Get some venture capital so that genuine "real things" can be discovered with these donated research dollars.

                  McDonald you have made a lot of very questionable claims. Claims that other's deserve the credit for, but who are decent enough not to use their discoveries to collect donations to be used as seed money to build up businesses for themselves. These are donated dollars that you want to claim a cut out of, to the tune of 3/4 of a million dollars per year, to do research that has been done extensively and conclusively over many years. I smell something foul in your motivations.

                  The Onestep article states:
                  "In this case we took someone five years out from their injury, with the highest level and worst injury possible, and we showed that we can reverse that person to the point where they are 60 percent to 70 percent of normal," he said. (Dr.McDonald)

                  Show us the documentation on this, or refer us to the peer reviewed journal in which this is documented.

                  The OneStep article states:
                  "The bicycle was originally designed in the late 1970s for acutely injured people who might be able to recover in the first couple of months, but was not intended for people who have had their injuries for a long period of time."

                  This is just not true!
                  I suggest people call Heather at Elctrologic Inc., to get the straight scoop on this.

                  Do you intend to back out of the conference in Mesa, AZ., the day before it commences, like you did in Iceland in 2000?

                  These questions will be asked until you address them.

                  Meeker

                  jrm design art studio

                  [This message was edited by meeker on Sep 29, 2002 at 12:52 AM.]

                  [This message was edited by meeker on Sep 29, 2002 at 12:55 AM.]

                  [This message was edited by meeker on Sep 29, 2002 at 02:13 AM.]

                  [This message was edited by meeker on Sep 29, 2002 at 02:22 AM.]

                  [This message was edited by meeker on Sep 29, 2002 at 05:35 AM.]

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Quote from cheesecake:

                    "Rather than make this an issue of McDonald's bike vs "the others" why don't we embrace the fact that there is now clinical documentation to demonstrate that ongoing aggressive rehab has POSITIVE impact on the health and well being of those with SCI. It will now be harder for the insurance companies to deny treatment of individuals who are seeking care. The type of bike has much less significance than the type of rehabilitation."

                    Thank you cheesecake! I have a feeling you guys would sit at a bar and argue over who invented beer first, if you had the chance!

                    _____________
                    Tough times don't last - tough people do.
                    _____________

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Agreement!

                      The issue is not the message. The message is awesome, we've had great success with our "Immersion Therapy" for the past 7 years. As a clinician I sell ideas and myself. I am constanly seeking the best available equipment for my patients. Men like Steve Petrofsky sit in their offices coming up with new and innovative ideas. They then sell these to those of us who help others. These men deserve credit for there hard work. We need to work as a team and not convince others that we do things that we can't. Hence my question, is the DR in the Rehab business or the Equipment business? His apologists my want to ask. I have been so challenged by this group and I produced a direct line of contact for any one to take, no one did! This is all part of the process of credibility. If he's a big boy he can take it!

                      PS: Besides Medicare I believe there are a number of insurance companies that will help with these. I would contact Electrologic or Curtis for more info on this.

                      God Bless

                      Arnie Fonseca, Jr
                      Neuro Institute
                      602-390-9144

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The Point is just any FES bike will not do

                        Years and years of research has been put into the Electrologic bike by one of the I believe, smartest Software Engineers in the country (Steven Petrofsky). As far as Dr. Macdonald and Patrick Rummerfield reverse engineering the software on the new bike and getting it right, all I can say, is good luck. The mechanical stuff is easy, the software is where Steve Petrofskys expertise shines through. He has taken many risks and dedicated himself in this area and the results show on all his products. In this case, I believe you really do get what you pay for, the way I see it, it is a matter of priorities, do you want the new car or do you want your physical health to be better? I for one choose my health. So many I have talked to expect someone else to save their health for them, come to the rescue so to speak and do not take responsibility for themselves. Just one pressure sore can equal the cost of the bike many times over in hospital expenses. The other thing is staying dedicated to an excercise program once you have the bike, that is another factor, I am willing to bet a lot of people who get these bikes end up losing interest in using them and they sit in their houses collecting dust and then kick themselves later for not taking the initiative and staying in shape.

                        I did not understand myself the reasons for the high expenses In the FES bike even just as recently as six weeks ago, since I have got to know the numbers and now realize the high expenses in Insurance, R & D, etc. and have a much better understanding of things. I feel that as FES gains in popularity (and it is exponentially now due to the Reeve reports) costs will come down as we will be able to gear things more towards mass production and this has been a major factor for high cost due to such limited production. This will put FES bikes into a lot more homes I feel. I for one am not counting totally on medicare stepping in and helping out (I hope I am wrong), especially under the Bush administration, if anything it seems like things are heading more towards the direction of cutting costs, especially should war break out in Iraq. I hope medicare does do the right thing and start helping out towards the costs (or at least partially), but like I said, dont count on it.

                        "Life is about how you
                        respond to not only the
                        challenges you're dealt but
                        the challenges you seek...If
                        you have no goals, no
                        mountains to climb, your
                        soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                        [This message was edited by Curtis on Sep 29, 2002 at 12:51 PM.]
                        "Life is about how you
                        respond to not only the
                        challenges you're dealt but
                        the challenges you seek...If
                        you have no goals, no
                        mountains to climb, your
                        soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          In complete agreement with cheescake and marmalady.

                          I still have a question though: Which came first? The chicken or the egg? [img]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


                          Sam Adams invented beer. Flame away.

                          Onward and Upward!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            In complete agreement!

                            Curtis nails it!

                            Like you Curtis I'm intestested in whats best for my patients. A good friend of mine has been in chair for over 30 years and over the past 6 months experinced his first pressure wound along with other problems. Meeker and I have been able to get him stimming equipment, which seems to be the only thing to help. He has Medicare, which is the problem. With available transportation he will get to use the best equipment for his health problems, when we get him to my new clinic. This is serious business for some of us, not a time to play around for the sake of someones EGO!

                            God Bless

                            Arnie Fonseca, Jr
                            Neuro Institute

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              LOL, Chris - Sam Adams DID invent beer! But how can you say that in public in the middle of Coors country?!! [img]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

                              _____________
                              Tough times don't last - tough people do.
                              _____________

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Duh

                                QUOTE:
                                "The Onestep article states:
                                "In this case we took someone five years out from their injury, with the highest level and worst injury possible, and we showed that we can reverse that person to the point where they are 60 percent to 70 percent of normal," he said. (Dr.McDonald)" He is referring to sensory I believe.

                                Please read the entire case study in the Journal of Neuroscience.....the person is Christopher Reeve!

                                Curtis, Arnie and Meeker; As I understand it, you gentleman are ALSO in the business of "selling products for SCI....ie., rehab center, FES bikes, hand bicycles. Don't go throwing stones at McDonald when you yourself have a vested financial interest in a product that MAY give you competition.

                                Now back to the BIGGER issue.....Lets get this through the insurance industry redtape so that more people have funding!

                                "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
                                It's already tomorrow in Australia!"----- Charles Schultz

                                Every day I wake up is a good one

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