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    #31
    Originally posted by Fly_Pelican_Fly View Post
    Im not sure paralympians are the best advocates for Cure. Happy to be proven wrong though.
    I think you are dead right. The heroic "as good as an able bodied" ideal really hacks me off. Surely, I have great admiration for these chaps and their commitment to competing in the games, but they are great ammunition for the "happy gimp" lobby, whose main interest is making multi bucks out of costly wheelchairs and all the other bits and bobs associated with disability.

    In truth they are the visible tip of the iceberg. The quality of life for those in constant discomfort or 24/7 pain, or who remain ill is adroitly ignored. I have been stuck in bed for most of the day for the past three months, courtesy of your friend and mine, the good old pressure sore. The principal reason for not taken part on the forum has been that I have only recently got access to a reliable laptop. My desktop just isn't bed friendly!
    Last edited by chris arnold; 6 Nov 2011, 7:32 AM.
    2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

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      #32
      Originally posted by chris arnold View Post
      I think you are dead right. The heroic "as good as an able bodied" ideal really hacks me off. Surely, I have great admiration for these chaps and their commitment to competing in the games, but they are great ammunition for the "happy gimp" lobby, whose main interest is making multi bucks out of costly wheelchairs and all the other bits and bobs associated with disability.

      In truth they are the visible tip of the iceberg. The quality of life for those in constant discomfort or 24/7 pain, or who remain ill is adroitly ignored. I have been stuck in bed for most of the day for the past three months, courtesy of your friend and mine, the good old pressure sore. The principal reason for not taken part on the forum has been that I have only recently got access to a reliable laptop. My desktop just isn't bed friendly!
      Welcome back. Hope the sore clears up soon mate.

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        #33
        Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
        I applaud people like Wise Young who can find the right situation of funding, facilities and educated guesses to pull it all together for a human trial, but he had to go to China to do it, where honestly, they don't have such a high regard for human life... mainly because they don't get sued and put in jail if someone dies.
        In China, medical malpractice is prosecuted as manslaughter.

        You should watch this presentation from Wise. It will clear up a lot of misunderstandings you have about the Chinese medical ethic.

        http://vimeo.com/2559414

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          #34
          Originally posted by Fly_Pelican_Fly View Post
          Welcome back. Hope the sore clears up soon mate.
          Many thanks. The sore seems to have stalled for the moment, but am allowed up for an hour for my evening meal.
          2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
          Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

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            #35
            Originally posted by KofQ View Post
            In China, medical malpractice is prosecuted as manslaughter.

            You should watch this presentation from Wise. It will clear up a lot of misunderstandings you have about the Chinese medical ethic.

            http://vimeo.com/2559414
            I'm not referring to their doctors, but the government as a whole-
            Other serious human rights abuses included extrajudicial killings, executions without due process, torture and coerced confessions of prisoners
            http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt...eap/135989.htm

            I've worked with several Chinese neurosurgeons who have done research rotations in my lab- and they are generally very good, I don't have any issues being worked on by them.

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              #36
              Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
              I'm not referring to their doctors, but the government as a whole-

              Quote:
              Other serious human rights abuses included extrajudicial killings, executions without due process, torture and coerced confessions of prisoners
              http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt...eap/135989.htm

              I've worked with several Chinese neurosurgeons who have done research rotations in my lab- and they are generally very good, I don't have any issues being worked on by them.
              http://vimeo.com/2559414

              At about 22:15, Wise does several minutes about how the government regulates clinical trials more rigorously than in the US.

              Regarding the quote from the State Department, do you really bleieve that the US government does not engage in extrajudicial killings, executions without due process, torture and coerced confessions of prisoners??

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                #37
                Originally posted by KofQ View Post
                http://vimeo.com/2559414

                At about 22:15, Wise does several minutes about how the government regulates clinical trials more rigorously than in the US.
                That's not surprising- the Chinese bureaucracy is legendary.

                What about @ minute 24 where he talks about a government official he was working with being executed? What about @ 30:50.. there is no malpractice- they pay off the families till they go away...
                All I am saying is there is a different set of ethics involved in different cultures- I'm not saying it's worse, or better, just different, and that has to be taken into account in any analysis or decision.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
                  What about @ minute 24 where he talks about a government official he was working with being executed?
                  Public officials in this country who are tried and convicted of corruption (i.e., treason) are not punished nearly harshly enough.

                  Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
                  What about @ 30:50.. there is no malpractice- they pay off the families till they go away...
                  This same situation exists in this country, except that there are insurance companies and civil courts in place to ensure that incompetent or unethical doctors are still free and practicing medicine.

                  Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
                  All I am saying is there is a different set of ethics involved in different cultures- I'm not saying it's worse, or better, just different, and that has to be taken into account in any analysis or decision.
                  I agree, but to imply that Wise had to go to China to conduct clinical trials because the regulatory or ethical barriers to entry are lower is inaccurate.

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by KofQ View Post
                    Public officials in this country who are tried and convicted of corruption (i.e., treason) are not punished nearly harshly enough.
                    Corruption is not treason- I would be hesitant to put my life in the hands of someone who had such little respect for life they have not qualms about killing someone for taking bribes.

                    This same situation exists in this country, except that there are insurance companies and civil courts in place to ensure that incompetent or unethical doctors are still free and practicing medicine.
                    The laws also PROTECT good doctors who treat unethical patients that are not happy with the results. Also, the ethics of those doctors are determined in a court by a group of their peers, not the same hospital that employs said doctor and is in an obvious conflict of interest.
                    I agree, but to imply that Wise had to go to China to conduct clinical trials because the regulatory or ethical barriers to entry are lower is inaccurate.
                    While China has made big improvements, The stiffer regulations did not go into effect until 2007, which is after Wise had started organizing this, I think. Besides, the main issue here is the use of stem cells, where the US is by far more restrictive than any other country, to it's own detriment.

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