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    #16
    Originally posted by Donnie View Post
    Chris, You shouldnt worry about how to get a treatment until one of them is proven effective. Don't put the wagon before the horse...
    Great, there are no uphill or downers any no more.

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      #17
      Donnie: Dr. Xiao, What are your thoughts on a cure/combination therapy for SCI's??
      CG Xiao: Donnie, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think it is impossible to restore the continuity of the cord or "bridge the gap" in the near future, let's say: 50 years. Dr Wise Young has been my most respected scientist in SCI. He has dedicated and contributed to SCI no other can match.

      Donnie, when did Dr Xiao say this? Would he say the same thing today? Every time I read this tagline of yours I despair. Dr Young does not seem to agree -- I hope he is right and not Dr Xiao.

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        #18
        Originally posted by mamadavid View Post
        Donnie: Dr. Xiao, What are your thoughts on a cure/combination therapy for SCI's??
        CG Xiao: Donnie, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think it is impossible to restore the continuity of the cord or "bridge the gap" in the near future, let's say: 50 years. Dr Wise Young has been my most respected scientist in SCI. He has dedicated and contributed to SCI no other can match.

        Donnie, when did Dr Xiao say this? Would he say the same thing today? Every time I read this tagline of yours I despair. Dr Young does not seem to agree -- I hope he is right and not Dr Xiao.
        Last time I checked Xiao was imprisoned and his planned trials on bb (bowel bladder) for example in Europe and Australia was/is toned down and cancelled. Xiao maybe had some good ideas on bb, but he isn’t a neuro scientists focused on SCI regenerative cures so I think you and any should take his statements for a future cure window with a big grain of salt as for what he was predicting as for SCI cures. I personally, now thinks, listening to him on a couple of conferences in the past, thinks he was more talking about his bb treatments for the money game for himself, and not to help peoples with SCI in the first place. It looks like he is totally off the bb and SCI radar too. And as for SCI cures and regenerative research, he has never been into that, so forget that 50 year prediction telling by a man whom cant predict his own future better than he did. Move on.

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          #19
          I am also pessimistic about a full blown cure for SCI in the foreseeable future.And there are logical reasons as to why I think like that, but before I cite my reasons as why I think that way, I must mention that this is not a personal affront or offence to anyone, least of all to the researchers and doctors who have devoted their entire life spans and worked long arduous hours in getting us to where we are.

          First and foremost is the gold standard that the scientists have based their 'cure' on. Walking. If a poll is taken of all the SCI's in the world , I can bet my bottom dollar that functional return of BBS would come out tops by a long margin, though I personally would take walking any day , ( would rather cath standing up ! ).Their has to be a shift in their way of thinking.

          Second is the ASIA scale , though it is not perfect , not by a long shot , but it still is the best we have, taking the ASIA scales into account , the trials that are going on or are being planned all have ASIA A as the first volunteers, this to my mind is an error of judgement on the part of the doctors.As ASIA A is the most severe of all the injuries , the doctors are hoping that whatever therapies that are or will be on the anvil would have them show functional return, logically to me ASIA C 's would most likely to benefit from these therapies.Medical research rarely takes giant leaps , more likely it takes baby steps, therapies should target the less severely injured first.For example chemotherapy may not be very successful in stage 4 cancer but it would and is very effective in stage one cancer.

          Third , in all probability acutes will get a 'cure' first then we all chronics actually become quite redundant and slowly get phased out with time so the research automatically comes to a standstill.

          Having said all this I fervently hope that I am proven wrong. It would be the first for me to be proven wrong would actually make feel like a winner.

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            #20
            I agree with lakboy.

            Trials should be for all. Should be for chronics also at the same time.

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              #21
              hmmmm

              you're probably all correct and there will be no cure and I'm putting the cart before the horse (the guy who said that has only been injured one year - wait till it's 29 years) and chronics won't be treated and medicine only takes baby steps (not always true for example penicillin, polio vaccine, aids drug cocktail all had an immediate impact on those diseases)

              BUT, I thought it was a good question - (and Wise certainly belives in cures even if some here don't). Some medical procedures are easily taught and exported while others need absolute expert practioners who perfected the procedure and I was curious as to how hard these operations Wise is overseeing would be to learn for the best neurosurgeons in any given country.

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                #22
                we still have'nt cured polio. We have managed to eradicate it. Getting polio is like getting chronic SCI. At acute stage me may in the future treat it well enough to be functional , but once it is chronic , it's a different ball game !

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                  #23
                  When the penicillin vaccine was introduced it made a phenomenal impact, not a baby step.

                  You weren't there but my parents were and they told me the impact it had.

                  Penicillin's introduction immediately saved thousands of lives from infection.

                  Anyway, I ask Wise Young the questions because he is better qualified to answer them. Your opinions are all noted.

                  I agree that pessimism is the first word that comes to mind when one thinks of spinal cord injury. "You'll never walk again" is what every medical person and physios etc will tell you and logic, because of its complexity, tells you that it must be true.

                  But this is the cure forum and unless we agree noone is allowed to mention cure or its possibility "don't mention the war" then we can ask the questions.

                  Wise is alway on the optimistic side of the cure debate and I personally hope he is 100% correct.

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                    #24
                    Acute vs chronic injuries are two different animals. Acute treatments are trying to prevent nerve loss, where as chronic treatments are trying to regrow nerves. The human body does not regrow nerves in the central nervous system. It would be monumental if scientists can get these nerves to regrow an inch, let alone over a foot or more that a cure needs. Even if they could get the nerves to grow they would need to connect to the right places, or close enough. Scientists have no idea on how to do this, so picking which ailment you would like first is futile. It is not just a few years away. There is still a hell of a lot more research that needs to be done. More money needs to be invested.

                    Its not all bad news though. Bioengineering is making giant strides. Prosthetics can be controlled by thought. I read an article where they are trying to recreate sensation by stimulating the brain. We will be using brain controlled exoskeletons to walk well before there is a biological cure found. Brain implants are our future.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      More about dr xiao?

                      Originally posted by Leif View Post
                      Last time I checked Xiao was imprisoned and his planned trials on bb (bowel bladder) for example in Europe and Australia was/is toned down and cancelled. Xiao maybe had some good ideas on bb, but he isn’t a neuro scientists focused on SCI regenerative cures so I think you and any should take his statements for a future cure window with a big grain of salt as for what he was predicting as for SCI cures. I personally, now thinks, listening to him on a couple of conferences in the past, thinks he was more talking about his bb treatments for the money game for himself, and not to help peoples with SCI in the first place. It looks like he is totally off the bb and SCI radar too. And as for SCI cures and regenerative research, he has never been into that, so forget that 50 year prediction telling by a man whom cant predict his own future better than he did. Move on.
                      Thanks Leif. Where and why is Dr Xiao in prison? What was his proposed treatment for bb?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        lol

                        Originally posted by Christopher Paddon View Post
                        hmmmm

                        you're probably all correct and there will be no cure and I'm putting the cart before the horse (the guy who said that has only been injured one year - wait till it's 29 years) and chronics won't be treated and medicine only takes baby steps (not always true for example penicillin, polio vaccine, aids drug cocktail all had an immediate impact on those diseases)

                        BUT, I thought it was a good question - (and Wise certainly belives in cures even if some here don't). Some medical procedures are easily taught and exported while others need absolute expert practioners who perfected the procedure and I was curious as to how hard these operations Wise is overseeing would be to learn for the best neurosurgeons in any given country.
                        First off, for the record I believe in a cure, but don't want to be overly optimistic, it will take time and a lot of money. I've been injured for approx 3 yrs and in that "short" amount of time I've obviously learned more than you considering that you believe SCI cure is something relevant to polio, penicillin, etc... It's more complex and going to take more than one drug to cure or help and night going to happen overnight.. Ex: Intensive rehab + stem cells + some growth factors(prob more complex than that, but that's where it stands for now)


                        Originally posted by Leif View Post
                        Last time I checked Xiao was imprisoned and his planned trials on bb (bowel bladder) for example in Europe and Australia was/is toned down and cancelled. Xiao maybe had some good ideas on bb, but he isn’t a neuro scientists focused on SCI regenerative cures so I think you and any should take his statements for a future cure window with a big grain of salt as for what he was predicting as for SCI cures. I personally, now thinks, listening to him on a couple of conferences in the past, thinks he was more talking about his bb treatments for the money game for himself, and not to help peoples with SCI in the first place. It looks like he is totally off the bb and SCI radar too. And as for SCI cures and regenerative research, he has never been into that, so forget that 50 year prediction telling by a man whom cant predict his own future better than he did. Move on.
                        Limb,

                        I thought you knew more about this, but apparently you've been misinformed.

                        Dr. Xiao is well known internationally for his distinguished achievements in Neurourology. He is a internationally respected academic surgeon and scientist, his scientific achievements in the recovery (spinal cord injury patients) bladder and bowel function in nerve regeneration studies.


                        I'm sure Dr. young will attest that Dr. Xiao is more than familiar with the spinal cord and seen more of it than most spine surgeons. I'm not defending what he has been accused of, rather that he is someone that has done great things for the SCI community and brought some results as far as functional improvement(not for everyone). His accreditations speak for themselves...
                        Donnie: Dr. Xiao, What are your thoughts on a cure/combination therapy for SCI's??
                        CG Xiao: Donnie, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think it is impossible to restore the continuity of the cord or "bridge the gap" in the near future, let's say: 50 years. Dr Wise Young has been my most respected scientist in SCI. He has dedicated and contributed to SCI no other can match.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Are you sure re Xiao and nerve regeneration? All he did was hook up two nerves via surgery and from the research I read, it didn't seem to work very well.

                          Chris do you do FES? Standing or take any bone density meds? Just wondering.
                          Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                          T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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                            #28
                            Lynnifer don't doubt Donnie. He has learned more in his short 3 years than I have in 29 years. Mind you, I think I understood a bit of the nature of the CNS before my accident whereas apparently Donnie needed to be injured before he took an interest.

                            I was using those examples as medical changes that did not appear on the public scene in baby steps. I was not comparing the therapies to what would be needed for SCI. When they appear on the public scene noone sees the years of research that went into them (although I think penicillin was almost a mistake.)

                            There might well be no cure in my life time but Wise Young is optimistic and he knows even more than Donnie. So I am always interested to know why Wise is optimistic and what the prospects may be from, his point of view.

                            I was simply asking Wise how difficult any procedure would be to teach other neurosurgical teams.
                            Last edited by Christopher Paddon; 9 Jul 2011, 3:25 AM.

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                              #29
                              As far as I am concerned, the cure is for everyone - no matter how long you have been injured.

                              Yes, walking may require intense rehabilitation - maybe even for a duration of years. It's gonna be hard work. No lying there. That is an individuals choice. But even without rehabilitation a cure should be able to provide improved sensation, reduced spasticity, hand dexterity, breathing ability for vent-dependent quads, temperature control and the potential for return of B&B and SF.

                              Will neuropathic pain be a side-effect of functional return? Maybe it will. Again, it will be your choice if you want to take that risk I suppose. Dr Davies has suggested that his therapy has shown evidence of reducing neuropathic pain. So, it is not impossible.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                As far as I know, there are no SCI cures - support you’re local SCI agents and what’s to come. SCI things and work for cures are moving on many fields. Keep pushing the ladies. Ladies on this means ladies does more than grown up men. Unbelievable, but facts. Global facts. Women does more for SCI cures than men. Fact.

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