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    Originally posted by shveddy View Post
    Woah woah woah, Dr. Wise - just to clarify here. You just clearly stated that some patients are walking. Now I can wait until the actual results are published to get the specifics quantified, but let's keep it general for now: Are you implying that these people weren't walking before the treatment?

    I'm sure it was mentioned someplace in this lengthy thread what the initial ASIA scores were for these participants and whether they are chronics or not, but could someone save me some time and tell me?
    All the patients in CN102B (in Hong Kong and in Kunming) are ASIA A and more than 1 year after injury. Many are more then 10 years after injury. None were walking before the trial. For many of the patients in Kunming, this is the first time that they are engaging in intensive locomotor training and for some this is the first time that they are trying to walk. However, all of them were probably standing at least an hour a day. Wise.

    Comment


      Originally posted by NoDecafPlz View Post
      And here come the fans with their open checkbooks forming lines/queues
      that wrap city blocks, all for the chance to buy tickets for a concert that has no schedule performances!
      Please, decaf. You are not helping with these comments. People should not jump to conclusions that we have shown that umbilical cord blood cells improve walking. I have only said that many patients are getting some sensation back and some are walking. In order to determine whether this is from the cell transplant and not from the surgery and rehabilitation, we must demonstrate it in a randomized control trial.

      Just so that there is no misunderstanding here, let me repeat this. I did not and have not said that the treatment is causing these improvements. I am only saying that this are my personal observations of the patients when I visited the center and I am encouraged enough by these observations to have decided that we will go ahead with the phase 3 trials.

      Look at this from another perspective. If none of the patients recovered anything, we would not be going ahead to the phase 3. The fact that some of the patients are showing some response in the trial justifies our going forward to spend the time and the money to do the phase 3 trial.

      Wise.

      Comment


        should I fear that intensive rehab alone is all that is working?
        "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

        "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


        2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
        Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

        Comment


          Originally posted by mamadavid View Post
          Dear Comad,

          I believe the surgery you refer to is performed at the acute or subacute stage -- not at the chronic stage.
          Comad,

          Mamadavid is correct. The intradural decompression surgery must be done during the first 2 days to 2 weeks after injury. Combined with the intensive walking program, this surgery apparently allow 50% of the patients to recover walking. This, by the way, needs to be tested in a multicenter controlled trial, which we are planning. If the intradural decompression really has this effect, this would be by far the most effective subacute therapy ever reported.

          By the way, we have tried replicating these results in animal studies. We are still trying to figure out all the parameters but we found that if we cut into the spinal cord of a rat within the first week after a contusion, the edema (swelling) of the spinal cord is so intense that tissues will mushroom out of the cut site and cause further damage to the spinal cord. We had to wait 10 days before we saw any beneficial effect of the intradural decompression. Furthermore, we were not able to see any beneficial effects of the intradural decompression on walking recovery in the rats although we saw evidence of reduced tissue damage and fewer neurons dying at and around the injury site.

          There is still a lot of skepticism around the world that this type of surgery will do what they have observed in Kunming. For example, when the group tried to publish their paper in 2008, it was turned down by all the major neurosurgery journals because the reviewers said that they don't believe the results. It was also a non-controlled study and it was not clear how much of the improvement was a result of the surgery or the intensive locomotor training. Dr. Zhu and her colleagues believe that it is the combination of the surgery and the intensive locomotor training.

          Finally, because Dr. Zhu is moving out of the Kungming Army General Hospital to this new private hospital called Tongren, this means that they will be able to take non-Chinese citizens as patients for the first time. They do have a uniquely intensive walking program. Please note that even Dr. Zhu is not claiming that 50% of people with chronic ASIA A will recover walking if they train intensively. What they do claim is that if an intradural decompression operation is done during the weeks after the injury and this operation is combined with the intensive training, as many as 50% of the patients can recover some walking.

          What we are hoping of course is that the umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and lithium are stimulating regeneration in the spinal cord. In other words, the treatment should be making patients more incomplete. In the same way, the intradural decompression surgery that they were doing may be making 50% of the patients more incomplete. If that is true, then intensive locomotor training may restore function. This has been shown by many other groups, by the way. Incomplete patients (ASIA C), if they undergo locomotor training, have a >90% chance of recovering locomotion.

          Sorry for such a long missive here. The bottom line is this. It is probably not worthwhile going to Kunming and undergoing the intensive locomotor training for six months if you have an ASIA A complete injury. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that a person with ASIA A chronic spinal cord injury, will recover walking just by participating in intensive locomotor training. On the other hand, if our trials show that umbilical cord blood and lithium significantly improves walking recovery in patients and this occurs only in patients that undergo intensive locomotor training, this would be a strong argument for starting the transplant therapy and intensive walking programs in the United States.

          Wise.
          Last edited by Wise Young; 3 Jun 2012, 2:14 PM.

          Comment




            Sorry Doc.
            And the truth shall set you free.

            Comment


              Thanks Dr. Wise to clear few things!
              I could be ASIA B or ASIA C and believe that right physio program (6:6:6) still can help me a Lot!
              We are all different, thanks God, and money (btw I don't have fat check book... I wish)
              - money is nothing if you and people around you know and believe in what they doing.

              I am dealing with impotent Health Care system where I have maximum of 12 physio therapies per year prescribed.
              Doctors unnecessary drug me for the first 6 months after my injury not doing single decent walking or standing
              session with me and no one ever consider to make any imaging of my SCI !
              All I need are team of people "know-how" and have experience in this.
              I just believe, that I will find a way to walk again as I can feel uncoordinated power in my legs!

              I believe that Dr. Wise will find a way and right "chemistry" to save a lot of people.
              People as Dr. Wise can visualize nonexistent things and make them.
              He has proved this already!
              Last edited by comad; 3 Jun 2012, 10:34 PM.
              www.MiracleofWalk.com

              Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary
              to what we know about nature
              Saint Augustine

              Comment


                I hav e to make a comment here.. my son is a
                Asia A c4-c5 all this talk about walking... What about restoring hand movement? He would just be happy to take care of himself and feed himself.. and may be able to transfer himself out of his chair. ... I hope I did not offend anyone here...

                Comment


                  I forgot to ask if one becomes more incomplete using the umblical stem cell treatment.. would one start to suffer from neuropathic pain? My son has a few people in his support group who are dealing with it and he fears if he ever becomes incomplete the nueropathic pain would be worse than than he is now.. just a question to ponder..

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by okwjoe View Post
                    I forgot to ask if one becomes more incomplete using the umblical stem cell treatment.. would one start to suffer from neuropathic pain? My son has a few people in his support group who are dealing with it and he fears if he ever becomes incomplete the nueropathic pain would be worse than than he is now.. just a question to ponder..
                    Tried stem cells twice using spinal fluid puncture, did not work. And, did not get neuropathic pain from the umbelical cord blood stem cells.

                    For neuropathic pain, you might try the following which is used on patients who got neuropathic pain from chemo therapy. Takes some patience and 2-3 months of steady use. But better than narcotics and the associated additicion with their side effects.

                    BTW, I know a C-4 who now drives a van and does a lot with some adaptive equipment.

                    Glutathiamine 15 grams (3 tbsp) twice a day
                    A-Lipoic ACID 600 mg twice a day
                    Bentofamin (thiamine) 300 mg twice a day
                    B 12 shot from family doc
                    Acetyl carnatine 1000 mg twice a day
                    Fish oil twice a day
                    Vit D 5000 iu daily

                    She had us get them from Integrative Therapeutics, Inc as the best on the market for purity and quality
                    Last edited by 6 Shooter; 4 Jun 2012, 10:53 AM.

                    Comment


                      6 shooter, thanks for your post. thank you

                      Anthony

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                        We have treated four subjects per group (C, D, and E). I was reporting personal observations and not the official results of the study. I don't know how many patients were walking in each group. Some patients are walking. I did not say (and do not want to say) how many patients were walking and at what level. I do not know how many have bowel, bladder, or sexual function. You will have to wait until all the data is collected and the information is published.

                        Wise.
                        Wise,

                        IMO you should be more carefull in reporting "personal observations" when it comes to walking.
                        People get overexcited esily. Unless this is your goal.

                        Paolo
                        In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                          ..... The fact that some of the patients are showing some response in the trial justifies our going forward to spend the time and the money to do the phase 3 trial.

                          Wise.
                          Wise,

                          since you are scientist I assume the patients have been examined to quantify the "some response" and based on the scientific evidence of the improvements you decided to go forward with the phase III.

                          So did any patient asia A recover walking after receiving the therapy?

                          Paolo
                          In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                          Comment


                            i second that Paolo it's either scientific proof or nothing.
                            but Wise is a different story day in day out he is pestered for results.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                              ...........
                              ... I have only said that many patients are getting some sensation back and some are walking. ....
                              ...


                              Wise.
                              Wise,

                              these patients that are now walking have received the therapy and were not walking before?
                              Did you ck that before deciding to go ahead with the phase III?

                              Paolo
                              In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                                Wise,

                                these patients that are now walking have received the therapy and were not walking before?
                                Did you ck that before deciding to go ahead with the phase III?

                                Paolo
                                You can find the answer in his 737 post,
                                All the patients in CN102B (in Hong Kong and in Kunming) are ASIA A and more than 1 year after injury. Many are more then 10 years after injury. None were walking before the trial. For many of the patients in Kunming, this is the first time that they are engaging in intensive locomotor training and for some this is the first time that they are trying to walk. However, all of them were probably standing at least an hour a day. Wise.
                                In my book this is almost the worst case scenario.
                                -Ramps in buildings are necessary, but it would be usefull to have another ones for people (mind/heart).....

                                -Hoc non pereo habebo fortior me

                                Comment

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