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  • #16
    Originally posted by JoeMonte View Post
    Dear Wise,
    You mention thousands of people going to various clinics abroad. Have you ever seen or heard of any positive outcomes? Just wondering. The trials in China, do they comprise of patients from just china or are patients from other countries volunteering to be a part of the trial. You hear so much about acute and chronics. What is the exact goal of Sci-net in the beginning stages? I appreciate the knowledge you share with all of us. I am very new to medical science and have much to learn. Thank You.
    Joe, if you spend any time on these forums, you will hear of both positive and no effects of all these therapies. Many people from the U.S. and Europe go overseas for unproven experimental therapies. For example, I understand that Beike Biotechnology claims to be treating 2 patients per day of people with spinal cord injury for the past 5-6 years. Beike alone has treated thousands of patients. They charge between $20,000 to $40,000 for the therapy. I heard that they had revenues of US$21 million last year. You can do the arithmetic as well as I can. I don't know what percentage of foreigners (e.g. North American, Europe, India, Russia, Middle East, Australia) but suspect that more than half are from overseas. The Beike cells are not HLA-matched and they are given intravenously or intrathecally. they frequently provide physical therapies as well.

    Other popular medical tourism destination that provide cells for spinal cord injuries include:
    • Germany. You go to X-cells in Cologne (Germany) and pay $6000-$10,000 (I think) for them to extract some bone marrow cells. You then take the cells to some doctor or clinic nearby and the cells are then injected intravenously.
    • India. Geeta Shroff in Delhi injects what she claims are embryonic stem cells intramuscularly or intrathecally. There are other clinics in Chennai and Mumbai that provide umbilical cord blood or bone marrow cells for intravenous or intrathecal administration.
    • Caribbean and Mexico. Numerous clinics in Monterey (Mexico) and Caribbean are giving intravenous injections of umbilical cord blood cells. I don't think that they are HLA-matched.


    There are of course some people claiming beneficial effects. Based on placebo response alone one would expect a 40% response rate. Unfortunately, what one does not hear about are all the patients who show no response to the therapy. Also, the responses that people report are generally not that impressive and usually not confirmed by medical examination.

    I am not sure that I understand your question about ChinaSCINet's initial goals. Our goal has always been at the beginning and now: to carry out rigorous clinical trials to test promising therapies of spinal cord injury. The group decided to focus on umbilical cord blood cells and lithium for chronic spinal cord injury as its first therapeutic testing program. We are beginning to test other therapies, such as intradural decompression for subacute spinal cord injury.

    There is interest within the ChinaSCINet investigators to study Schwann cells, olfactory ensheathing glia, Nogo antibodies, chondroitinase, and other therapies. The network has already completed phase 1 and 2 trials examining the safety and efficacy of lithium treatment of chronic spinal cord injury.

    Wise.

    Comment


    • #17
      Dr. Young,
      Thank you for the answers. I just didn't understand all of these bio-tech clinics selling a fake package of goods. As for SCINet , I was not sure if they wanted to work on new SCI's before a lot of scar tissue sets in or work on both Acutes and Chronics at the same time testing your treatments . I think the main goal is regeneration in all . I guess that is what I was looking for in a response but you have clarified intentions. I wanted to know about the clinical patients because I have traveled to china a few times for our business in the past. I know the southern part of china pretty well.I would travel their if you needed some U.S. patients and I qualified. I know they have a lot of SCI patients in china . I just wasn't sure if they were going to mix the nationalalities up of the patients. I didn't know if that had an effect on the different genes or if it was just the injury of a person . Thanks again. I wish you much success with these trials. Best Regards,
      Joe

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes, but is it really ethical to continue with these kinds of treatments??? I worry that you are playing God here.



        Ok, I'm just kidding - go for it...!!! Great news, keep up with the progress.....I will quietly await my turn some year.......

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
          The network has already completed phase 1 and 2 trials examining the safety and efficacy of lithium treatment of chronic spinal cord injury.

          Wise.
          Wise, would you be able to tell me if anything more is known about lithium and it's potential to help with Neuropathic Pain from this work and if Phase 3 will be looking at this further, or will this be a seperate study. If it does require a seperate study what sort of time frame are we looking at? It sure would be great to get this pain under control.

          Your passion and determination are very admirable.

          Clayton
          "Wheelie Wanna Walk!"

          Comment


          • #20
            Thankyou Dr. Wise for the further clarification-my head is buzzing, am delighted with the amount of research and networking that has been done to get to this stage and just need to settle myself and wait!
            P:s : I have worked as an Occupational therapist in stroke rehab for 17 years and i have never had a person from the medical profession take the time to explain something to me so detailed. THanks for making me feel i have a brain!

            Comment


            • #21
              Wise, my cousin recently had a liver transplant; so far so good and I saw him last week and he is recovering nicely. I'm on him to execrcise everyday as he was never one to do so. However, he went to Mexico for stem cell treatment prior to the transplant. I think the guys name was Rader. He charged 30k$ for a one session shot. Jerry, my cousin, still doesn't get that this was a sham. I am careful no to deliberate on this. Just my experiience with Mexico. This is hoping that your treatment will spell out the success for all to see.

              Comment


              • #22
                Dr. Rader is medra clinic... He is a scam
                "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

                "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


                2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
                Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

                Comment


                • #23
                  Lunasicc, I 'm afraid you're right. I didn't want to tell my cousin, but this is an example of treachery. We need Wise and others to initiate their trials and bypass these scams.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Well don't let your cousin waste their money only to have shattered hope. I would definitely tell
                    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

                    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


                    2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
                    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      lunasicc, he has recived a new liver and is recovering thus far. I think he knows that Mexico was a bad idea. I will tell him what I know.

                      thanks,
                      keeping on

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Geoman View Post
                        Wise, would you be able to tell me if anything more is known about lithium and it's potential to help with Neuropathic Pain from this work and if Phase 3 will be looking at this further, or will this be a seperate study. If it does require a seperate study what sort of time frame are we looking at? It sure would be great to get this pain under control.

                        Your passion and determination are very admirable.

                        Clayton
                        We are planning the study now. We are trying to decide whether we should do a phase 2 dose-response trial first. At the present, we are also discussing the classification of neuropathic pain and what outcome measure we will be using.

                        Wise.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Dr. Young,

                          A million thanks and a formal toast for the October 11th date.

                          I am assuming it is the CN102B trial. What did you mean by allocating patients sequentially to treatment groups? Does it mean that all the five patients that you have identified so far will go into the same treatment group? If yes, which treatment group are you starting on October 11 in Hong Kong -- Group A with 1.6 million cells, or Group E with 6.4 million cells, lithium, and methylprednisolone, or other groups B, C, or D? Please also explain why?

                          I am a little disappointed that after the meeting/presentation on August 29, 15 new patients have not been identified/have shown interest to join. Is the evaluation for trial patients continuing right now, and do you have good reason to believe that you have got your 15 additional trial patients as the evaluation ends? And when will the evaluation end and you will know where you are with respect to available Hong Kong trial patients?

                          I wish you all the best toward a quick and timely start of the China trials. Is that going to be CN102B equivalent trial? How many trial patients are you looking for there?

                          I can't wait for the results, and I hope and pray for positive outcomes. Thanks again especially to you, and your team members for all you do.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Quad62 View Post
                            Dr. Young,

                            A million thanks and a formal toast for the October 11th date.

                            I am assuming it is the CN102B trial. What did you mean by allocating patients sequentially to treatment groups? Does it mean that all the five patients that you have identified so far will go into the same treatment group? If yes, which treatment group are you starting on October 11 in Hong Kong -- Group A with 1.6 million cells, or Group E with 6.4 million cells, lithium, and methylprednisolone, or other groups B, C, or D? Please also explain why?

                            I am a little disappointed that after the meeting/presentation on August 29, 15 new patients have not been identified/have shown interest to join. Is the evaluation for trial patients continuing right now, and do you have good reason to believe that you have got your 15 additional trial patients as the evaluation ends? And when will the evaluation end and you will know where you are with respect to available Hong Kong trial patients?

                            I wish you all the best toward a quick and timely start of the China trials. Is that going to be CN102B equivalent trial? How many trial patients are you looking for there?

                            I can't wait for the results, and I hope and pray for positive outcomes. Thanks again especially to you, and your team members for all you do.
                            The design of an accelerated dosing trial is to start with the lowest dose and increase it unless you get neurological deficits. So, we will be starting with the 1.6 million cells, i.e. 4 ┬Áliter injections x 4 with 100,000 cells/┬Áliter.

                            We are assessing the patients at 6 weeks, 6 months, and a year.

                            Kunming has already a list of 27 patients who have signed up. They still need to detailed screening but Kunming may well finish ahead of Hong Kong.

                            Wise.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              A massive thumbs up from me Dr Young. Great work.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                scinetusa

                                Dear Dr.Young
                                can you please do the same for SCINETUSA?
                                Thank you.

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