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    Originally posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    By your logic, they should have just skipped the human clinical trials too and immediately sold the UCB therapy to any customer. It would have saved at least 5 years and millions of dollars. Also, animal testing saves time and money in the larger scheme of things.
    by shear logic the therapy either works or it doesn't. which ever way leads to the most effective/efficient way of coming to that conclusion is best for us all. spending hundreds of millions and years of organization to find out something doesn't work does not seem effective or efficient (which gives credence your animal studies comment but the positive results there seeing may be connected to there deciding not to waste time with animal studies, how many pointless animal studies have we read about on this site over the years anyway)... well it may be effective but it is not efficient. regardless lets not knock the thread off course so i won't respond anymore as I have no other questions..

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      Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
      by shear logic the therapy either works or it doesn't. which ever way leads to the most effective/efficient way of coming to that conclusion is best for us all. spending hundreds of millions and years of organization to find out something doesn't work does not seem effective or efficient (which gives credence your animal studies comment but the positive results there seeing may be connected to there deciding not to waste time with animal studies, how many pointless animal studies have we read about on this site over the years anyway)... well it may be effective but it is not efficient. regardless lets not knock the thread off course so i won't respond anymore as I have no other questions..
      +1

      Rather than have fun at the lab with mice as a schoolboy scientist, they've also applied it to humans. That isn't to say that animal testing does not serve it's purpose - it can be useful for other conditions. But there have been countless animal studies.

      By your logic, we might as well stay in our wheelchairs, Nowhere Man

      Regards

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        ...

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          Hey guys, maybe someone can help me. I just have a simple question about the Phase two trial. There were 15 patients out of 20 who were able to walk, and all complete, but was there any quad between them?
          From what I understood, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this therapy would give us back the involuntary walking, so while standing we give the command to our legs to walk and we start walking...or something... Even that this sounds strange for me and I would have much more questions I'll just skip to an other big concern I got. To be able to get on your feet, or to stand, or to walk with or without the help of a walker you not only need to move your legs but you also need movement in your upper body and to be able to use your arms and hands. Can someone explain if, or how will this therapy work for a quad? Thanks.
          Last edited by Silvio GS; 22 Aug 2014, 3:55 PM.

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            I can't wait for your questions to be answered Silvio

            I've been thinking about it too, for those of us with limited upper body strength, how will we stand?

            And to what extent is this walking involuntary? We would love an answer. Either way, I fully support this trial.

            Hope Dr Wise or Jim can answer - I did look at the Central Pattern Regulator, but can't find the answers.

            Regards

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              Originally posted by Silvio GS View Post
              Hey guys, maybe someone can help me. I just have a simple question about the Phase two trial. There were 15 patients out of 20 who were able to walk, and all complete, but was there any quad between them?
              From what I understood, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this therapy would give us back the involuntary walking, so while standing we give the command to our legs to walk and we start walking...or something... Even that this sounds strange for me and I would have much more questions I'll just skip to an other big concern I got. To be able to get on your feet, or to stand, or to walk with or without the help of a walker you not only need to move your legs but you also need movement in your upper body and to be able to use your arms and hands. Can someone explain if, or how will this therapy work for a quad? Thanks.

              I don't recall the breakdown of paras/quads but there were several quads in the trial.

              "Involuntary walking," isn't accurate because the subjects must initiate stepping. Once they get going it becomes somewhat involuntary in a rhythm/flow sense but I wouldn't describe it as involuntary.

              Attached is a graphic of the Kunming Locomotor Scale so you have an idea what the rolling walker looks like and what the different stages are. The person in the graphic was not a subject in the trial.

              Click image for larger version

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                2 patients have got up to stage VI (6) right Jim?

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                  Hello Jim,
                  I am looking forward to Oct 3, open house. Will Dr. Wise be there to discuss current phase 3 status or does he need to wait until the papers are published? Just wondering. Thank you,
                  Best Regards,
                  Joe

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                    Yes Barrington, don't know if they have progressed further.

                    Joe he will give an update on the latest.
                    Last edited by Jim; 25 Aug 2014, 8:12 PM.

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                      Makes me wonder how their every day lives have changed, even if they havent got far enough to walk with zero assistance. For example, driving a car normally without hand controls. Im sure theres tons of little things like this that we just dont always think about but would be a nice improvement in our lives.

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                        Originally posted by Barrington314mx View Post
                        Makes me wonder how their every day lives have changed, even if they havent got far enough to walk with zero assistance. For example, driving a car normally without hand controls. Im sure theres tons of little things like this that we just dont always think about but would be a nice improvement in our lives.
                        Maybe this can help clarify.

                        Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                        Cspine,

                        We observed that patients showed improved locomotor scores but did not improve their motor or sensory scores. Motor scores represent voluntary activation of muscles on a scale of 0-5, where 0 indicates no movement when the subject is asked to move the muscle, 1 indicates trace or flicker movement, 2 indicates muscle movement only when the influence of gravity is removed, 3 indicates ability to counteract the effects of gravity, 4 indicates ability to move muscle against resistance but not normal, 5 indicates normal muscle strength.

                        The walking is voluntary in the sense that the subjects are initiating and maintaining walking. Many of the subjects are supporting most of their weight (they are leaning on a device that has wheels on it). The walking is also functional in the sense that some subjects taking steps and moving around with devices, something that they could not before the therapy. People are stepping with their legs even though they may NOT show improvements in their ability to wiggle their toes (extensor hallucis longus), move their ankles (anterior tibialis/gastrocnemius), straighten their knees (quadriceps), or flex their hips (psoas) on command.

                        Many people who have recovered walking after spinal cord injury will tell you that they can walk but they don't have good control of the individual muscles or have feelings in their feet. This is common.

                        Wise.
                        I think this precludes any activity that requires ability to voluntarily lift / move your leg muscles, i.e. driving.

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                          What was the post injury time range and average of the patients? Were any of the subjects able to get from seating to standing on there own? After the patients have successful regeneration to the CPG I wonder what needs to be done to allow them to control their muscles on command. Could it be that its simply not possible, that quite frankly the connections die after not being used, because of injuries like these?

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                            Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                            What was the post injury time range and average of the patients? Were any of the subjects able to get from seating to standing on there own? After the patients have successful regeneration to the CPG I wonder what needs to be done to allow them to control their muscles on command. Could it be that its simply not possible, that quite frankly the connections die after not being used, because of injuries like these?
                            If I recall correctly, well over 7 or so years post injury.

                            Nowhere Man found a good answer by quoting Dr Wise. It seems we won't be able to stand using our lower half. We will have to use upper boddy and practice stepping, and trigger the involuntary rhythm as said by Jim above.

                            I'm still trying to wade through 200 pages of this thread to find answers. Why not start a new thread with misconceptions cleared, without ambiguous answers. I am getting to the point where heck I'll do it myself, start a thread specific to this trial.

                            Regards

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                              Really excited about these trials. I realized thta we have to be patient but at least the path is clear.
                              Just wanted to also ask about the quadriplegics. How are they able to use their hands and arms to hold on to the walker when they are initiating the walking? What kind of improvements has occureed to the upper body?
                              This is really important because it will clear things up when it comes to walking and quadriplegics.
                              Again I want to thank Dr.Young and everyone involved in this trial for their great efforts.

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                                Originally posted by taymas View Post

                                I'm still trying to wade through 200 pages of this thread to find answers. Why not start a new thread with misconceptions cleared, without ambiguous answers. I am getting to the point where heck I'll do it myself, start a thread specific to this trial.

                                Regards
                                I know what you mean. Ive read it all before but would like to go back through. Updating the first post in this thread with the most relevant info/pics/videos would be very nice and helpful.

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