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  • hypothetical question about recovery

    Lets say a person some how regained function. After years of spasms and involuntary movements wouldn't that person be able to move his limbs as easily as they move during spasms? like my legs sometimes straighten out tightly and my knee buckles just as easily. You would think if I recovered function I could at least standup immediately based on the strength of my spasms.

    I mean we often talk about how we'll need extensive rehab after a procedure but my question is would years of spasms show instant results. We should at least be able to replicate the spasm movements voluntarily. if not why?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
    Lets say a person some how regained function. After years of spasms and involuntary movements wouldn't that person be able to move his limbs as easily as they move during spasms? like my legs sometimes straighten out tightly and my knee buckles just as easily. You would think if I recovered function I could at least standup immediately based on the strength of my spasms.

    I mean we often talk about how we'll need extensive rehab after a procedure but my question is would years of spasms show instant results. We should at least be able to replicate the spasm movements voluntarily. if not why?
    That's my thinking also Eric.

    I'm getting off my drugs as rapidly safe to increase spasm's. we'll see
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
      Lets say a person some how regained function. After years of spasms and involuntary movements wouldn't that person be able to move his limbs as easily as they move during spasms? like my legs sometimes straighten out tightly and my knee buckles just as easily. You would think if I recovered function I could at least standup immediately based on the strength of my spasms.

      I mean we often talk about how we'll need extensive rehab after a procedure but my question is would years of spasms show instant results. We should at least be able to replicate the spasm movements voluntarily. if not why?
      Eric,

      It is true that people who have spasms and muscle will be ahead of those who do not and who have atrophy. However, motor control requires retraining the spinal cord and muscle to respond to commands, frequently from neural sources that normally do not innervate them. This will require repetitive training.

      Wise.

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      • #4
        Do you spasm 24/7 on all parts of your body that has been

        effected by paralysis? Probably not. Your muscles atrophy. Your bones change (thickness, calcification, organs reposition, etc...) Your entire body changes over the years. I have lots of spasms. Sometimes they help and sometimes there a bitch.

        I'm c7-c8 inc. s/p 33 years. I also stopped Baclofen under MD orders. It effected my breathing. The longer a sci your body changes more. And walking again won't fix that.


        Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
        Lets say a person some how regained function. After years of spasms and involuntary movements wouldn't that person be able to move his limbs as easily as they move during spasms? like my legs sometimes straighten out tightly and my knee buckles just as easily. You would think if I recovered function I could at least standup immediately based on the strength of my spasms.

        I mean we often talk about how we'll need extensive rehab after a procedure but my question is would years of spasms show instant results. We should at least be able to replicate the spasm movements voluntarily. if not why?
        Lynarrd Skynyrd Lives

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
          Eric,

          It is true that people who have spasms and muscle will be ahead of those who do not and who have atrophy. However, motor control requires retraining the spinal cord and muscle to respond to commands, frequently from neural sources that normally do not innervate them. This will require repetitive training.

          Wise.
          Really, So what your saying is that even if the spinal cord is restored it actually has to be retrained? excuse my lack of technical understanding but if the neurons are some how able to bridge the gap it wouldn't instantly be able to communicate with our muscles and bodily functions? Mentally I feel like i would be back to normal if my body would just respond. I cant imagine that I would need to some how retrain my body. I remember strongly how I use to command my body if that makes any sense. like I remember the feeling of getting up out of a chair, i remember the muscles i would use and where the strain would be. why on a restored spinal cord would it need to be retrained? seems like with a fixed connection it would just be command and respond...

          P.S. just thinking about standing up out of a chair feels really good....

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          • #6
            Originally posted by FreeBird View Post
            effected by paralysis? Probably not. Your muscles atrophy. Your bones change (thickness, calcification, organs reposition, etc...) Your entire body changes over the years. I have lots of spasms. Sometimes they help and sometimes there a bitch.

            I'm c7-c8 inc. s/p 33 years. I also stopped Baclofen under MD orders. It effected my breathing. The longer a sci your body changes more. And walking again won't fix that.
            organs reposition themselves?

            honestly, i don't think there is a paralyzed muscle I have that doesn't spasm. maybe not constantly but from my abdomen to my toes I get spasms...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
              Really, So what your saying is that even if the spinal cord is restored it actually has to be retrained? excuse my lack of technical understanding but if the neurons are some how able to bridge the gap it wouldn't instantly be able to communicate with our muscles and bodily functions? Mentally I feel like i would be back to normal if my body would just respond. I cant imagine that I would need to some how retrain my body. I remember strongly how I use to command my body if that makes any sense. like I remember the feeling of getting up out of a chair, i remember the muscles i would use and where the strain would be. why on a restored spinal cord would it need to be retrained? seems like with a fixed connection it would just be command and respond...

              P.S. just thinking about standing up out of a chair feels really good....
              I feel exactly the same. I close my eyes and i remember exactly how it was to walk or even feel my whole body. Remember all the touch, what i felt when dressing up or when having a shower or even when i was running. I remember perfectly muscle pain from training and stuff like that.
              I feel that it wouldn't take that much to relearn my whole body from a cognitive prespective way. I hardly ever have dreams but when i do have them, most of the time i'm an AB so even my "deep" brain is still living it hahaha.
              Local innervation and other stuff is another issue and i wouldn't know about it.
              With physical maintenance, which is what we all have to do everyday: standing up, bike and whatever... i don't think our bodies will be that destroyed if we ever get to walk again.
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              • #8
                You'll likely be rewired. 100% of axons aren't going to be restored and cross the injury site, following a path back to where they were before injury. Those axons that do make it across the injury level and keep growing will probably have to take on new duties, innervating muscles that before injury they had nothing to do with. But the plasticity of the spinal cord allows this. This is probably what Wise meant when he said 'repetitive training'

                What you did before, what you say you remember doing - getting out of a chair, etc -, likely won't work because your brain will be signaling the old neurons and axons that used to do the job to get going, when in reality they might not exist or be in the same place as before. Your brain will have to train other axons to do the job.

                That's my guess, I could be wrong.
                Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
                Really, So what your saying is that even if the spinal cord is restored it actually has to be retrained? excuse my lack of technical understanding but if the neurons are some how able to bridge the gap it wouldn't instantly be able to communicate with our muscles and bodily functions? Mentally I feel like i would be back to normal if my body would just respond. I cant imagine that I would need to some how retrain my body. I remember strongly how I use to command my body if that makes any sense. like I remember the feeling of getting up out of a chair, i remember the muscles i would use and where the strain would be. why on a restored spinal cord would it need to be retrained? seems like with a fixed connection it would just be command and respond...

                P.S. just thinking about standing up out of a chair feels really good....
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rdf View Post
                  You'll likely be rewired. 100% of axons aren't going to be restored and cross the injury site, following a path back to where they were before injury. Those axons that do make it across the injury level and keep growing will probably have to take on new duties, innervating muscles that before injury they had nothing to do with. But the plasticity of the spinal cord allows this. This is probably what Wise meant when he said 'repetitive training'

                  What you did before, what you say you remember doing - getting out of a chair, etc -, likely won't work because your brain will be signaling the old neurons and axons that used to do the job to get going, when in reality they might not exist or be in the same place as before. Your brain will have to train other axons to do the job.

                  That's my guess, I could be wrong.
                  thats pretty weird.... I could see things being pretty confusing if I have to find new ways to tell my leg to move. all I know mentally is to say "move leg". I wouldn't even know how to condition myself to do anything other...

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                  • #10
                    Exercice and some good supplements can put your bones and muscles in awesome shape, so donĀ“t underestimate the recovery power and the strenght of our body.
                    -Ramps in buildings are necessary, but it would be usefull to have another ones for people (mind/heart).....

                    -Hoc non pereo habebo fortior me

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
                      Really, So what your saying is that even if the spinal cord is restored it actually has to be retrained? excuse my lack of technical understanding but if the neurons are some how able to bridge the gap it wouldn't instantly be able to communicate with our muscles and bodily functions? Mentally I feel like i would be back to normal if my body would just respond. I cant imagine that I would need to some how retrain my body. I remember strongly how I use to command my body if that makes any sense. like I remember the feeling of getting up out of a chair, i remember the muscles i would use and where the strain would be. why on a restored spinal cord would it need to be retrained? seems like with a fixed connection it would just be command and respond...

                      P.S. just thinking about standing up out of a chair feels really good....
                      Eric,

                      A person with an incomplete spinal cord injury doesn't get up and walk right away. He or she has to retrain the spinal cord to function with fewer axons that they had before the injury. One only needs about 10% of the spinal cord in order to activate many of the more automatic functions of the spinal cord, including walking, micturition (peeing), defecation, and copulation. Many people with incomplete spinal cord injuries recover such functions without being able to move specific muscles like they use to. For example, I know people who are able to walk but they cannot wiggle their toes on command.

                      What regeneration does is to make you into an "incomplete" spinal cord injury.

                      Wise.

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                      • #12
                        when I dream, I am always AB too.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                          Eric,

                          A person with an incomplete spinal cord injury doesn't get up and walk right away. He or she has to retrain the spinal cord to function with fewer axons that they had before the injury. One only needs about 10% of the spinal cord in order to activate many of the more automatic functions of the spinal cord, including walking, micturition (peeing), defecation, and copulation. Many people with incomplete spinal cord injuries recover such functions without being able to move specific muscles like they use to. For example, I know people who are able to walk but they cannot wiggle their toes on command.

                          What regeneration does is to make you into an "incomplete" spinal cord injury.

                          Wise.
                          wow that raises more questions. So how does sensation work in the same situation, do you have to relearn what the sensations feel like or how would that work? how far do you estimate a incomplete can go recovery wise? I mean could an incomplete get to the point where he appears to be completely restored or will there always be a deficiency because he his connections aren't as "natural" as an able bodied person?

                          not setting expectations, just asking out of curiosity. Personally I doubt any of us currently hurt will ever be completely restored if restored at all. it would be nice though...

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                          • #14
                            mistake post
                            Last edited by Eric.S; 06-17-2010, 08:50 PM.

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