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  • Give this a read and response

    http://www.vescell.com/attachment/The-$100billion-Scam.pdf

    I found this while looking up some other stuff. Its an interesting read atleast but I found that there is a lot there that I agree with. I would love to get an opposing opinion though which I'm sure can be found on here. these aren't neccessarily my views so save the hostility towards me although i think my thoughts are more towards his side especially after reading his thoughts...

  • #2
    Eric, can you specify a few things that you agree with in the diatribe? Thanks. Wise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Phew - It's kinda hardcore reading, this paper...

      "..you already believe their lies and are willing contributors to their
      cause and you have become sheep, walking quietly to the ovens as did the European
      Jews under Hitler. The Jews of today’s Israel, without thinking twice, will kill those
      that would destroy them, but you, dear heart patients, have become the sheepwalkers
      of the 21st century. The ovens await you, and your government, especially your
      Congress, is doing everything in its power to shove you along."

      To be honest - I don't know what to think anymore...
      "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

      Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
      Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

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      • #4
        And:

        "The embryonic profiteers NEVER publish the truth, which is that ESC will not
        cure any human of anything in the next decade---perhaps longer. Instead they
        make outrageous claims like “If George Bush were not president, Christopher
        Reeve would be walking now!” Michael J. Fox has been suckered in too. He
        doesn’t know that he is lengthening his suffering by contributing to the fraud,
        but he is."
        "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

        Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
        Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

        Comment


        • #5
          And:

          "The answer, obviously, is the woefully deficient USA medical system and
          worse, the establishment which runs it. Today the USA is running dozens of
          near-worthless heart clinical trials to prove what the Brazilians, Germans,
          Uraguayans, Thais, and others proved years ago. The USA is NOT discovering
          anywhere near the new uses of ASC as South America or even India! Why?
          Because its blindly-moronic** scientists are so bent on politically-correct ESC
          that they believe their own lies that ASC do not work."

          Somebody tell me if this is a mad man rambling? Or is there anything to it?
          - Leif, where is it from, and what interest has the writer in this? Is he financially involved with the Israeli company he keeps mentioning?
          "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

          Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
          Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

          Comment


          • #6
            I saw bioethics specialist idiot Wesley J. Smith and LifeNews.com mentioned a few times in the paper, and then I stopped reading. -It’s just a bunch of camouflaged fundamental religious hoopla propaganda that has nothing to do with science and cures.

            Comment


            • #7
              Leif - thank you for the good morning read!!
              "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

              Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
              Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

              Comment


              • #8
                100 billion scam

                Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                Eric, can you specify a few things that you agree with in the diatribe? Thanks. Wise.
                DR.wise wht di you think of Don margols is he right or worng
                Last edited by skeaman; 11-19-2008, 10:26 AM. Reason: my spelling in it is wrong
                AS I SIT HERE IN MY CHAIR . I LOOK OUT UPON THE GROUND .I WONDER WILL I EVER GET UP AND WALK A ROUND ??


                http://justadollarplease.org

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                • #9
                  100 billion scam

                  [quote=skeaman;953664]DR.wise what did you think of Don margols is he right or wrong /quote]
                  Last edited by skeaman; 11-19-2008, 10:32 AM. Reason: my spelling is wrong
                  AS I SIT HERE IN MY CHAIR . I LOOK OUT UPON THE GROUND .I WONDER WILL I EVER GET UP AND WALK A ROUND ??


                  http://justadollarplease.org

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skeaman View Post
                    DR.wise wht di you think of Don margols is he right or worng
                    In my opinion, Don Margolis doesn't know what he is talking about and the whole article is propaganda by an anti-embryonic activist. But, I don't want to waste my breath on how wrong Margolis is and would like to know what Eric thought was right about Margolis that I can address his concerns.

                    Wise.

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                    • #11
                      some of the main points I agree with him on is why are we spending so much in hopes of esc when we in fact could focus on asc or any other procedure with promise. And i definitely believe there is a lot of promises and very few actual results. And from what I've been hearing more and more from different sources is that scitentific community definitely seems to be a sort of kabul where only certain perspectives are given the time of day. Alot of people and not just patients seem to becoming disenfranchised with the scientific community. All we get as patients is either calls for more money or calls for more letters to congress to provide more money. is it so impossible to more with less? And I do question why more isn't heard about asc here in america. we can work towards esc but at the same time make progress with asc. In america we get the perception that asc's are useless....

                      the questions I have about his accusations are what about the claims of succesful use of asc in europe. are they over stated? I find it kind of hard to believe that research is being "embargoed" especially in the days of the internet but i'm wondering how valid the successes he mentions are.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In the introductions he says he isn't religious or anti-abortion. He says he's libertarian.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
                          some of the main points I agree with him on is why are we spending so much in hopes of esc when we in fact could focus on asc or any other procedure with promise. And i definitely believe there is a lot of promises and very few actual results. And from what I've been hearing more and more from different sources is that scitentific community definitely seems to be a sort of kabul where only certain perspectives are given the time of day. Alot of people and not just patients seem to becoming disenfranchised with the scientific community. All we get as patients is either calls for more money or calls for more letters to congress to provide more money. is it so impossible to more with less? And I do question why more isn't heard about asc here in america. we can work towards esc but at the same time make progress with asc. In america we get the perception that asc's are useless....

                          the questions I have about his accusations are what about the claims of succesful use of asc in europe. are they over stated? I find it kind of hard to believe that research is being "embargoed" especially in the days of the internet but i'm wondering how valid the successes he mentions are.
                          Eric, thanks. As I understand it, you think that Margolis has a point in saying that all scientists seem to want is more money, that embryonic stem cell research has not done much at all, and that adult stem cells are already curing so much but news about their success is being held back.

                          Cure of spinal cord injury is not simple or easy. It is one of the most difficult problems in science today, more complicated than curing AIDS and probably equivalent to curing cancer. There are not enough scientists working on the problem of regenerating the spinal cord. If we want more of the best scientists in the world to work on the problem, we need to increase funding of the field We need funding for clinical trials. As you know from being on these forums, we have struggling for four years now to get the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act passed by Congress. That bill doesn't even specify the amount but may end up with less than $100 million of funding over 3 years, if that. The United States spends more than that in one day in Iraq. They just spent $2 trillion dollars bailing out banks!

                          Margolis talks about $100 billion being spent on embryonic stem cell research. He doesn't have a clue concerning what the country is spending on stem cell research. In 2007, the National Institutes of Health spent less than $250 million on all human stem cell research. Only about 20% of that amount ($35 million) was on human embryonic stem cell research and most of that was characterizing 10-year old cells derived before 2001, are genetically defective, and cannot be used in humans. The rest is on bone marrow and a small amount in on cord blood. Please, there is not sufficient spending on adult or umbilical cord blood stem cells clinical trials.

                          There is no embargo on information concerning adult stem cells. I read that literature every day. I do research on umbilical cord blood research. Do you think that I am withholding information on umbilical cord blood curing spinal cord injury from CareCure? I hope not. Cord blood may be useful for spinal cord injury. I am working on it because I think so. Many other cells have been reported to be beneficial for spinal cord injury, including bone marrow stem cells, neural stem cells, and even embryonic stem cells. I am not working on those because they are not available or too expensive to take to clinical trials at the present time.

                          There is no question that cord blood cells are effective for treating may conditions. They are beginning to be used more in the United States than bone marrow transplants for replacing bone marrow in cases of leukemia and other hematological disorders. In fact, there is evidence that cord blood cell transplants will be able to cure diseases such as thalassemia and sickle cell anemia. There is also evidence that cord blood cells will cure autoimmune diseases such as lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, multiple sclerosis, and type 1 (juvenile) diabetes. This is great and there needs to be much more investment in that work by NIH.

                          What about embryonic stem cell research? Many opponents of embryonic stem cell research claim that these cells have not been useful for any condition. Well they are right that embryonic stem cells have not been shown to be effective in humans. This is because George W. Bush has essentially stopped all possibility of these cells going to clinical trial in the last 8 years It is true that Bush did not restrict companies from investing in embyronic stem cells and taking it to clinical trials. However, based on overblown fears and false claims, opponents of embryonic stem cell research have stopped the research at every step of the way. They held back the research in California, for example, for 3 years. Proposition 71 passed in 2004 and the California Insitute of Regenerative Medicine (CIRM) did not start funding human embryonic stem cell research until 2007. There are only two companies doing any serious human embryonic stem cell development: Geron and Advanced Cell Technology. Neither of them have been able to get any trials started.

                          In the meantime, however, human embryonic stem cell research has gone on overseas. It is no accident that the first discovery of induced pluripotent stem (IPS) cells was made overseas (by Yamanaka in Kyoto). That discovery, by the way, was a result of systematically testing nearly 400 genes that embyronic stem cells are known to express until they found four genes that appear to be necessary and sufficient to induce pluripotency in adult somatic cells. Likewise, there are now probably over 400 human embryonic stem cell lines derived since 2001. Most of these were done overseas in England, Singapore, China, Korea, and other places. In the United States, much of the research effort has focused on animal stem cells and adult human stem cells. Not surprisingly, much progress has been made on adult stem cells, understanding the niches in which they operate, and how stem cells operate in the body.

                          Margolis says that he isn't religious or anti-abortion and does say that he is libertarian but perhaps he should stop using religious arguments and adopt a more libertarian posture on stem cells. If he were truly a libertarian, he would be taking a neutral position on adult and embryonic stem cells. I can understand it if he thinks that government should not fund any research because some libertarians believe that government should only do national security and money. But, he should not be taking sides on this issue. May the best cells win. Human embryonic stem cells were never given a chance. If they don't work... that is fine. But, if they work, the suppression of human embryonic stem cell research is unconscionable. Margolis should shut up and stop interfering with research, something that he clearly knows very little about.

                          Wise.
                          Last edited by Wise Young; 11-19-2008, 04:04 PM.

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                          • #14
                            you make good points Dr. Young. I also didn't understand why he feels ESC should be abandoned even if it evenually proves to be useless let it be, but i felt he had some points about the scientific community in general. But I do think ESC get a disproportionate amount of attention and focus. I don't know if its a scam but it shouldn't definitely be considered the only avenue. Do you think the scientific journals and community in this country are open minded and unbiased? I find that in any community scientific or otherwise norms and standards develop and the community becomes stale and dogmatic..

                            I think its kind of questionable to compare illnesses of different natures to each other. not saying sci is easily cureable but some procedure could appear tomorrow that would make it an easy fix. the fact that we can't cure it makes it difficult but once the solution is found to some degree it can change everything.

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                            • #15
                              I also agree with his postion that withholding procedures is murder. I always thought the purpose of science was to help people. prolonging research unneccessarily in my mind is atleast complicit in the suffering of those that depend on science to live or put an end to there suffering. sometimes it appears that careers and people making a name for themselves is more immportant than ending the suffering of others...

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