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  • #16
    Then Margolis is a murderer since he objects embryonic stem cell research.

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    • #17
      Then Margolis is a murderer since he objects embryonic stem cell research.
      So the eloquent Norwegian does have a fundamentalist dark side?
      "It's not the despair, I can handle the despair! It's the hope!" - John Cleese

      Don't ask what clinical trials can do for you, ask what you can do for clinical trials. (Ox)
      Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

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      • #18
        There is an old saying that "preception is everything."

        IMHO there is a major hurdle to overcome at the public perception level because there have been too many articles on stem cells without the necessary clarity of what types of cells are used in the research. Margolis points out several from the New England Journal.

        Part of the lack of funding issue is due to poor writing, slanted points of view, and not enough specifics and use of facts. Most people that ask my son or I about our stem cell ventures have got all the facts wrong about government funding of stem cells. Where does this preception come from?? The press of course. The press has taught them that Bush is NOT in favor of stem cells. As Wise points out, Bush is not in favor of embrio stem cell reseach paid for by the federal gov.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by topperf View Post
          So the eloquent Norwegian does have a fundamentalist dark side?
          Hah, it was meant in response to this line from Eric “I also agree with his postion that withholding procedures is murder.” I probably instead should have asked; so does this mean that Margolis also is a murder since he objects embryonic stem cell research?

          But above that, deep inside there might be a fundamentalist dark side or two (if I ever meet some of them LifeNews.com folks that is)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
            you make good points Dr. Young. I also didn't understand why he feels ESC should be abandoned even if it evenually proves to be useless let it be, but i felt he had some points about the scientific community in general. But I do think ESC get a disproportionate amount of attention and focus. I don't know if its a scam but it shouldn't definitely be considered the only avenue. Do you think the scientific journals and community in this country are open minded and unbiased? I find that in any community scientific or otherwise norms and standards develop and the community becomes stale and dogmatic..

            I think its kind of questionable to compare illnesses of different natures to each other. not saying sci is easily cureable but some procedure could appear tomorrow that would make it an easy fix. the fact that we can't cure it makes it difficult but once the solution is found to some degree it can change everything.
            Eric,

            The reason why embryonic stem cells are getting a lot of attention is because of George W. Bush. If he had just left it alone, instead of restricting it, it would have been just another one of those promising therapies that may or may not work. But, because he blocked it and made if a "controversy", it became the focal point for endless debate. My impression is that there are relatively few articles being written that are touting embyronic stem cells. Most of the articles are written by people attacking embryonic stem cells and then there are some articles written in defense. There are a lot more anti-embryonic stem cell articles than there are pro-stem cell articles. You just happen to see more of the latter on this site. Go to the prolife sites and you will be bombarded.

            Embryonic stem cells are important for many reasons other than replacing cells. We need to understand how these cells work and develop, because it is key to understanding development in general. Embyronic stem cells are the only stem cells that can go ahead and make all the other cells of the body without having to interact with other cells. For an adult stem cell to do anything, it must grow in conjunction with other cells that form a "niche" and communicate with the stem cell, telling it what kind and how many cells it should make. That is why it is so difficult to grow adult stem cells and get them to make certain types of cells.

            I remember when my friend Ira Black first reported that bone marrow cells can produce neurons and nobody believed him, it was really tortuous to get the cells to make neurons consistently. You had to starve and poison the cell to death before the bone marrow cells would make neurons and even then it is only like 1 in a 1000. A lot of people are reporting that they can make this or that cell pluripotent. The problem is that none of them can do it consistently. Believe, I have looked and tried to replicate many of the studies.

            Why is it so hard to make adult stem cells make different kinds of cells? The reason is of course because pluripotency and ability to self-replicate (the two critical features of a pluripotent stem cell) are very dangerous characteristic. The moment you get cells that do this, these are cells that can produce tumors. What is a tumor? A tumor is when a cell makes the wrong number and type of cells in a tissue. Stem cells are rigorously controlled because the body just doesn't want cells that can make many cells go into a tissue and make the wrong number and type of cells. Imagine what a fiasco it would be if a stem cell wandered into your spinal cord and grew a toenail.

            Embryonic stem cells and adult stem cells are all part of a continuum. We need to study both ends of the continuum to understand how and what they do. What is happening is that research on one end of the stem cell continuum is being restricted because a small minority of the people think that it is immoral. Well, the vast majority of people in the United States do not think that it is immoral to use cells from blastocysts that are being thrown away after in vitro fertilization. Hundreds of thousands of these fertilized eggs are being thrown away. The parents don't want them. If if they are put up for adoption, nobody wants them. The choice is not between killing them and not killing them. The choice is between flushing them down the drain or using them to save lives. Don't you think that latter is better? More than half of Catholics in New Jersey think so.

            For 8 years, this research has been restricted even though Congress has voted twice to pass legislation to overturn the restrictions. What right does George W. Bush have to impose his personal morality on the rest of the country? He vetoed the bills twice. Now, of course, he will be gone and Obama will lift the restriction but it is coming at a time when there is no money for any NIH funding increase. While it is not clear who or what is responsible for the financial mess that we are in but it is clear that it once again happened on the watch of George W. Bush. It will be a year or more before NIH can actually increase its budget to fund embryonic stem cell research at the level that it should be funded. In the meantime, states are also cutting back and I hope that it is going to be a strange situaiton where there will be no state money for other research except for stem cell research. This is not what scientists want. This is a mess created by George W. Bush.

            Wise.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Leif View Post
              Hah, it was meant in response to this line from Eric “I also agree with his postion that withholding procedures is murder.” I probably instead should have asked; so does this mean that Margolis also is a murder since he objects embryonic stem cell research?

              But above that, deep inside there might be a fundamentalist dark side or two (if I ever meet some of them LifeNews.com folks that is)
              so be it.. if you have the capability to save lives and you don't do so in my opinion you are complicit. So many people would be helped if careers and personal goals weren't involved with progress..

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              • #22
                So, Dr Young...even though the ban on funding the research will probably be taken care of very soon, the funding will probably not help the actual researchers for several years at best? If we are looking at the funding taking several years, it may be a VERY long time before anything substantial comes to fruitition from any research that is in the pipeline for trials?
                Wouldn't it be nice to see an infusion of funds from sources that have been waiting for a lift of the ban on the esc research? I often wonder if this will happen since there is such a high percentage of Americans wanting the research to go forward.
                Perhaps the private sector will be more inclined to put money into it now?
                If the Geron trials move forward and show good results we can only hope that it would create an explosion of interest and funding. Do you think this is possible?
                http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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                • #23
                  Although a difficult economical situation for the NIH I believe more funding will force it’s way towards hESC research when the federal funding ban is lifted. This because more scientists will enter the field. This then again might take money from other fields, but then again I guess there is plenty of research that is not top-notch research that can wait or be cancelled. Like making stem cells from balls etc.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Eric.S View Post
                    so be it.. if you have the capability to save lives and you don't do so in my opinion you are complicit. So many people would be helped if careers and personal goals weren't involved with progress..
                    Eric. I understand what you are at, but I don’t think I agree with you. I see and know several researchers from over here and I can almost guarantee you that they are not putting themselves as persons ahead of the research; in fact they do the opposite. One had his resigning papers ready to sign a time earlier due to the current ban situation we had on hESC research and the overall negative view the government had on most medical basic research (has changed some now). The researchers are also very open to user organisation and diagnostic groups, like peoples having spinal cord injuries. They invite us to their labs, give lectures at conferences we have, -without hesitation when asked. Of course that is in their interest, but it is also in our interest. Thereby one should team up with researchers and discuss best ways to help for speeding such research and not 'look' for all kinds of ways to distrust the researchers. And by teaming up any suspicion of distrust 'if ever present' will automatically disappear.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GRAMMY View Post
                      So, Dr Young...even though the ban on funding the research will probably be taken care of very soon, the funding will probably not help the actual researchers for several years at best? If we are looking at the funding taking several years, it may be a VERY long time before anything substantial comes to fruitition from any research that is in the pipeline for trials?
                      Wouldn't it be nice to see an infusion of funds from sources that have been waiting for a lift of the ban on the esc research? I often wonder if this will happen since there is such a high percentage of Americans wanting the research to go forward.
                      Perhaps the private sector will be more inclined to put money into it now?
                      If the Geron trials move forward and show good results we can only hope that it would create an explosion of interest and funding. Do you think this is possible?
                      Grammy,

                      Very good points. Money isn't everything. George W. Bush did a great deal of harm to the industry because they realized that he and other irrational powers could actually stop research in the field and none of the major pharmaceutical companies wanted to be involved in a risky field where a a President and a relatively small minority of misinformed people could stop the research in the field or prevent its application to people for 8 years. So, the fact that we will soon have a President who listens to the people and who has a rational ethical approach to science will be very helpful. That alone will free up the market and investment. Of course, George W. Bush managed (I don't know know how) crash the economy while he is at it and we will not be able to move ahead as fast as we would like on the research. Private sector has little money and there are many priorities other than spinal cord injury.

                      Several months ago, I decided that I am not going to be swayed by all these gloom and doom. We have had gloom and doom for so long, we just need to move ahead whether the money is available. If we just do it, the money may show up or we may be able to raise the funds. All that I know is that if we don't start now, it will take that much longer. If it turns out that we don't have enough money, at least we will have tried.

                      Wise.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                        Several months ago, I decided that I am not going to be swayed by all these gloom and doom. We have had gloom and doom for so long, we just need to move ahead whether the money is available. If we just do it, the money may show up or we may be able to raise the funds. All that I know is that if we don't start now, it will take that much longer. If it turns out that we don't have enough money, at least we will have tried.

                        Wise.
                        Bravo Wise. Thank you. Keep on forging ahead and we will get there eventually.
                        Here's Hoping!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Dr Young...you are so right. Rather than beating your head against a brick wall, you forge ahead with the necessary research and money that is currently at hand. With the lift of the ban on funding, democrats taking the white house, 70% of Americans wanting stem cell research to continue and new exciting discoveries coming to light...you have to admit that the direction is turning now! I see more positive changes in the past few months than I have in the 39 months since my sons accident.

                          I would see the demands for stem cell therapies increasing along with funding, legislation and private sector investments when the tides change from the Bush era.

                          It'll take a little time for the dust and the cobwebs to get cleaned off, but the turn will be exciting to watch as America strives to reposition itself as a leader in all fields. We've heard so little from our society in general about the "future". It'll take awhile for the USA to evolve from the time warp we've been so frustrated with...but at last it is starting!
                          You're correct in leaving the gloom and doom behind. Evidentally you've
                          personally felt the beginning of this shift!
                          http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                            If we just do it, the money may show up or we may be able to raise the funds.
                            Wise.
                            I have no doubt that money will flow to areas that demonstrate success. We are still a 13+ trillion dollar economy. Yes times are tough, but there's always a ton of money looking for the next blockbuster breakthrough.
                            KB

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                            • #29
                              Windpipe Repair

                              Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                              Grammy,

                              Very good points. Money isn't everything. George W. Bush did a great deal of harm to the industry because they realized that he and other irrational powers could actually stop research in the field and none of the major pharmaceutical companies wanted to be involved in a risky field where a a President and a relatively small minority of misinformed people could stop the research in the field or prevent its application to people for 8 years. So, the fact that we will soon have a President who listens to the people and who has a rational ethical approach to science will be very helpful. That alone will free up the market and investment. Of course, George W. Bush managed (I don't know know how) crash the economy while he is at it and we will not be able to move ahead as fast as we would like on the research. Private sector has little money and there are many priorities other than spinal cord injury.

                              Several months ago, I decided that I am not going to be swayed by all these gloom and doom. We have had gloom and doom for so long, we just need to move ahead whether the money is available. If we just do it, the money may show up or we may be able to raise the funds. All that I know is that if we don't start now, it will take that much longer. If it turns out that we don't have enough money, at least we will have tried.

                              Wise.
                              I have to ask, but did anyone hear on the news last week or see in the New York Times the repair of a woman's windpipe (London) using her own stem cells? The doctor used a cadaver's windpipe to replace the woman's damaged windpipe. I feel confident that this will get the ball rolling to continue on some type of research in the use of a person's own stem cell to heal themselves and possibilities of healing people with SCI.
                              Aggie Mom 2007

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                              • #30
                                jhorn4012, I agree... as more things come to light it seems there are more doctors stepping up to the plate and working on remarkable things. Just this past year Kevin Everett was treated with an experimental procedure that cooled the spinal cord to help stop the cascade of destruction that happens with a tramatic injury. We'll get the ball rolling in a more positive direction as soon as the presidential ban has been lifted, legislation is in place and funding isn't being held back for obvious reasons. I only hope the changes will take place soon.
                                http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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