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    #46
    Originally posted by Eric.S
    your using other cases to dismiss this one. no one here is qualified to approve or dismiss anything they haven't even seen first hand. dr wise knows the guy and they have agreed to meet so lets wait to get his response to all this. maybe its legit maybe its not. how can anyone just assume they understand something completely from behind a computer screne... yes we have all seen it before but to write off all procedures based on what you've seen in the past could prove to be foolish... unless you know dr sheroff or what she's doing you really don't know if its legit or not...
    Eric,
    I have read posts here on this forum regarding Dr Shroff and the above treatments, as well as many others with similar claims of treatments being successful. The point I am trying to make, is there is no documented evidence to back the claims. Believe me, if clinical documented evidence is shown, then it may benefit us, without it, it means little.

    That is why I was making the comparison, you may very well be right that the treatment is legit, and then again it may not. But common sense tells me to be leary, I've heard it all from shark cartilage to walking boots, many, many, countless claims of improvement but with nothing to back it, including the above, but they'll take your money and treat you with something. I don't know Dr Shroff and have read no documentation proving or disproving the work.

    I noticed in another thread that she may be at the Miami Project next week. I will be in Miami on Tuesday June 17, and if time allows, make an attempt to go over there to see if anything can be learned. Foolish I am not, it is my right as well as yours and all others to question what can't be proven.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by Wise Young

      Upon further questioning, Perry says that Geeta Shroff is treating everybody with the same human embryonic stem cell line. He has requested to see the laboratory but she has not allowed him to see it.
      It is precisely this type of secrecy that is bothersom. Once a patent application is filed, Dr. Shroffs proprietary rights are protected.


      Originally posted by Wise Young
      While it it is possible for a person on the ventilator to regain the type of function that Perry did without any therapy, it is striking that all these improvements happened to coincide with the timing of the treatment. The fact that the improvements are modest also lend some credibility to his claims. If Perry had gotten substantial breathing changes, like getting off the respirator in 3 months, I would not have believed. Finally, the procedure seems to have had negative side-effects for Perry.
      Think Dr. Young meant No negative side-effects. Agreed with your summary. Thanks for following up. I still don't understand how supposed cells injected IV & IM can have this type of effect.

      Anyone given any thought to Dr. Shroff & those from the Miami Project meeting. I think something is in the works.

      Comment


        #48
        Yes, I mean no negative side effects. Thanks. Wise.

        Comment


          #49
          Dr. Wise I have done the surgrey in Lifelife hospital in Chennai, it didn't involve any umbilical cord blood cells, they took bone marrow and treated it somehow and then they injected it back in my spine.

          None the less, I did not have any improvement since last august.

          I'm T9 complete since march 2004.

          A.J.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Neo
            Dr. Wise I have done the surgrey in Lifelife hospital in Chennai, it didn't involve any umbilical cord blood cells, they took bone marrow and treated it somehow and then they injected it back in my spine.

            None the less, I did not have any improvement since last august.

            I'm T9 complete since march 2004.

            A.J.
            Neo, thanks. My mistake. Wise.

            Comment


              #51
              I will say this as a dentist, not a specialist in neuro-research. I am as desperate as anyone. In my field there is stem cell research to regenerate teeth. there are 16 different teeth and a right and left version of each. Every persons teeth vary in size,shape, color and can be unique in many aspects.there is so much we don't know about the process of doing this it is mind-boggling. Now take the spinal cord and the CNS system. You think you just stick some foreign stem cells into your cerebral spinal fluid and you magically get well? 40,000 bucks for the same procedure as a pregnant woman gets before she has a baby [epidural]. Wise is proposing a cord blood plus lithium trial. The trial is logical because cord blood injections are accepted in China and evidence shows lithium may promote axion growth. I promise this will cure no one but the data will be valuable. My opinion is our own neuronal stem cells or esc manipulated and then some csf manipulation to promote growth, maybe lithium, growth factors some other surgical technique then maybe with years of therapy that insurance won't cover we will be some what normal. Years after that it will be perfected. Text books will speak of Dr. YOUNG like the wright brother to flight.
              Han: "We are all ready to win, just as we are born knowing only life. It is defeat that you must learn to prepare for"

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by jhope
                I will say this as a dentist, not a specialist in neuro-research. I am as desperate as anyone. In my field there is stem cell research to regenerate teeth. there are 16 different teeth and a right and left version of each. Every persons teeth vary in size,shape, color and can be unique in many aspects.there is so much we don't know about the process of doing this it is mind-boggling. Now take the spinal cord and the CNS system. You think you just stick some foreign stem cells into your cerebral spinal fluid and you magically get well? 40,000 bucks for the same procedure as a pregnant woman gets before she has a baby [epidural]. Wise is proposing a cord blood plus lithium trial. The trial is logical because cord blood injections are accepted in China and evidence shows lithium may promote axion growth. I promise this will cure no one but the data will be valuable. My opinion is our own neuronal stem cells or esc manipulated and then some csf manipulation to promote growth, maybe lithium, growth factors some other surgical technique then maybe with years of therapy that insurance won't cover we will be some what normal. Years after that it will be perfected. Text books will speak of Dr. YOUNG like the wright brother to flight.

                stemcells seem pretty straight forward in my opinion. I know they are things such as rejection and tumors that can be a danger but the theory itself seems pretty simple: get the cells that created the organs in the first place to reproduce that activity. now this is not to say dr. shroff is using actual embroyonic stem cells or that her method of injection effective but in all the theory seems rather simple in practice...

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by Eric.S
                  stemcells seem pretty straight forward in my opinion. I know they are things such as rejection and tumors that can be a danger but the theory itself seems pretty simple: get the cells that created the organs in the first place to reproduce that activity. now this is not to say dr. shroff is using actual embroyonic stem cells or that her method of injection effective but in all the theory seems rather simple in practice...
                  Eric,

                  There is a lot of learn. From Perry's description, Geeta Shroff is doing things differently from what I have understood in the past. In any case, here are some additional comments:

                  First, when I first found out about Geeta Shroff's treatment, I really was taken aback by the concept of intramuscular injections of stem cells. In my opinion, this is potentially the worst place to inject cells and expect them to get into the spinal cord. But, it appears that they are injecting the cells into the muscles that they hope to revive. Now, as a neuroscientist, this still seems totally ridiculous to me but I can understand why they might do that...

                  Second, Perry assured me that they are injecting the same stem cell line into all the patients. I didn't know this. It was of some concern to me that she is injecting embryonic stem cells into patients. If one were to inject such cells into the people, the cells (if the survive) will form teratomas (embryonic tem cell tumors that contain cells of many types) unless they pre-differentiated the cells or the cells are simply being rejected.

                  Third, Perry is fairly experienced and skeptical person. He has considered many types of therapies and has probably considered most available options. This is the first experimental therapy that he has undertaken, to my knowledge. He has not been going from clinic to clinic, trying everything in sight.

                  Geeta Shroff is apparently in the U.S. (in Las Vegas soon) and apparently will be going to the Miami Project. So, I would very much like to find out what they think down there.

                  Wise.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Wise Young
                    But, it appears that they are injecting the cells into the muscles that they hope to revive. Now, as a neuroscientist, this still seems totally ridiculous to me but I can understand why they might do that...
                    .

                    as a non neuroscientist that seems rediculous to me also. why would they do that and expect results? honestly, to me that seems hokely and very faith healerish. that sounds like something someone who doesn't even understand sci would do...

                    Comment


                      #55
                      The latest information: Sometime within the next 7 day period, Dr. Shroff will be/ has a planned visit with either Dr. W. Dalton Dietrich or Dr. Barth Green. Via phone conversation, the Miami Project has denied Dr. Shroff is visiting the facility. Sometime after this initial meeting, Dr. Shroff will then travel to CA, destination unknown. Sometime during the week of June 23rd, she will be speaking at a medical forum in Las Vegas, Nevada.

                      On a seperate note. Prior to Dr. Shroff conducting her cell injection procedure, she conducts a Q & A with the patients in a group setting. Dr. Shroff indicated* (during this setting) that 50% of the cells she injects, die or are rejected within the first 24 hours of the injection. *This is third hand information. However, I find this information interesting if true.

                      If true, would this indicate the cells must be of a low purity level?

                      Comment


                        #56
                        history being repeated,

                        remember dr. huang invited to miami and california and was made to feel quite good about his work only to later get blasted by them with a very one sided report.

                        i wouldn't recommend either but this should be interesting.
                        http://justadollarplease.org/

                        2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member

                        "You kids and your cures, why back when I was injured they gave us a wheelchair and that's the way it was and we liked it!" Grumpy Old Man

                        .."i used to be able to goof around so much because i knew Superman had my back. now all i've got is his example -- and that's gonna have to be enough."

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Leo
                          history being repeated,

                          remember dr. huang invited to miami and california and was made to feel quite good about his work only to later get blasted by them with a very one sided report.

                          i wouldn't recommend either but this should be interesting.
                          Leo,
                          I may be mistaken, but I believe the Miami Project sent a group of scientists to China to evaluate the procedure done by Dr Huang around 3-5 years ago. They returned and produced a report on the procedure. I think it may have been one of the first outside observations done by U.S. scientists. They produced the report based on observations while there, there were certain parts of the procedure they were not allowed to observe, possibly how the cells were cultured, not sure? I believe their observations were based on science and their recommendation was that it was not a procedure people should undertake at this time due to lack of documentation and follow up results on those who had the procedure. Every procedure whether it works or not helps scientists move towards what will work. There is still more we don't know about curing a SCI then what we know.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Thanks for the info Dr. Wise, I am raising money to go to India to Dr. Shroff. I understand it is a longshot but this isn't living to me it is just existing and if I could do anything here in the U.S. I would do it. At this point I would shoot the moon and take less than 50% odds on getting fixed or taking a dirt nap.
                            I am existing right now, I would give anything to live again.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by SethO
                              Thanks for the info Dr. Wise, I am raising money to go to India to Dr. Shroff. I understand it is a longshot but this isn't living to me it is just existing and if I could do anything here in the U.S. I would do it. At this point I would shoot the moon and take less than 50% odds on getting fixed or taking a dirt nap.
                              SethO,

                              This is not just "a long shot". Please, treat your spinal cord and not your emotions.

                              Perry is by no means functional. He is not off the respirator by any means. He can get off the respirator for an hour or more. I know a number of people with high spinal cord injury who have gotten that much back on their own. He cannot move his hands. Yes, he told me that he has discovered that he has trace triceps but perhaps he didn't really look for them until he started the treatment. After all, Christopher Reeve discovered that he can move his left index finger one day.

                              While I am willing to have an more open mind concerning this treatment, I am not yet convinced that this treatment is doing anything.

                              Wise.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by Wise Young
                                SethO,

                                This is not just "a long shot". Please, treat your spinal cord and not your emotions. .

                                No offense Dr. Wise but its alot easier to say than to go through.

                                Comment

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