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The decline of programmers in the U.S.

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    #46
    Originally posted by t8burst View Post
    The CPU on my gaming machine is water cooled
    Liquid nitrogen is the way to go.
    You will find a guide to preserving shoulder function @
    http://www.rstce.pitt.edu/RSTCE_Reso...imb_Injury.pdf

    See my personal webpage @
    http://cccforum55.freehostia.com/

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by SCIfor55yrs. View Post
      Liquid nitrogen is the way to go.
      Or that stuff they cool Crays with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorinert

      I saw a Cray rep do the mouse trick (drop a mouse into that stuff, it can breathe and survives) when they decommissioned the Cray supercomputer at NCAR.

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by BSgimp View Post
        Hello,

        I am a Computer Science student and I am about to graduate this winter. Do you guys have any advice for the likes of me. I read the thread and see some dont really hire people straight out of college. It is a scary time ahead of me as I transition into industry. I am not sure what to expect. I study in City Univeristy of New York and program here didnt touch anything else other then assembly, C++, C# and Mysql. I learned a lot about Comp architecture and deisgn but I am not sure how that applies to Software Eng jobs. I think I have sharp critical thinking skills and I have many ideas for projects I want start after I graduate but our team conists only of my friends from college. We dont have a professional setup ..just our minds and perseverance.

        You guys seems to understand the industry well. What would you say to fellow gimp aspiring to have a career in Cmputer Science. I love it and I want to make a living this way.
        Loving it is a good start, especially if you can convey that in an interview. Showing an interest in and knowledge about a potential employer's domain is also very important. I've interviewed many applicants who were just looking for a job, any job, and knew nothing about what my company does, not even enough to know what questions to ask. They don't get asked back, even if they are super programmers.

        That said, I'd rather hire a computer science graduate and teach him/her software engineering (development process, change control, etc) than hire someone who has never programmed outside an IDE, and has no idea that there are other environments besides Windows.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by BSgimp View Post
          Hello,

          I am a Computer Science student and I am about to graduate this winter. Do you guys have any advice for the likes of me. I read the thread and see some dont really hire people straight out of college. It is a scary time ahead of me as I transition into industry. I am not sure what to expect. I study in City Univeristy of New York and program here didnt touch anything else other then assembly, C++, C# and Mysql. I learned a lot about Comp architecture and deisgn but I am not sure how that applies to Software Eng jobs. I think I have sharp critical thinking skills and I have many ideas for projects I want start after I graduate but our team conists only of my friends from college. We dont have a professional setup ..just our minds and perseverance.

          You guys seems to understand the industry well. What would you say to fellow gimp aspiring to have a career in Cmputer Science. I love it and I want to make a living this way.
          Write something for the iPad, Chrome native plugin (https://developers.google.com/native-client/), or Android. Game, app, something. When I look at people fresh out of school, aside from making sure they have good computer science skills and the ability to think I ask about their hobbies. I want to hire people that got a CS degree because they love programming, not because they just thought it was a degree that would get them a well paying job (it will). When I see someone who in their spare time is writing apps or contributing to an open source project that is a major plus.

          Also be very careful about your first job. Don't get desperate and take a QA, or IT job. Find a job writing software that interests you. I have seen a lot of people get rat holed by taking the wrong first steps in their career.

          I don't know what the job market it like in NYC, but I do know in other parts of the country programmers are in high demand. The thing is, no one will relocate you for an entry level job (unless you are some godlike programmer) so you may have to consider moving on your own.

          Lastly you don't need a professional setup if you and your friends have a project in mind. If it is a web bases idea, you can create a virtual company using AWS with very little investment.

          Good luck, if you are smart and can write good code you will get a job and have a successful career. You just have to get that first job, which is the hard one, after that if you are good jobs come to you.

          Comment


            #50
            One of the things you need to make sure you know about any company you apply to is what kind of hardware/software enviroment they use.

            This used to be much more of a problem...schools taught Pascal on DEC equipment when the business world used Cobol on IBM mainframes...but you still need to be aware of what your prospective employer uses. There are many more variations these days...Apple, Unix, Windows...and each has its own set of development tools.

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              #51
              Thank you so much. I have now better understanding of what people want. Its interesting to me. I wish I could find a job in range of my interests. Its a dream to actually do something I enjoy for a living. I always have been into computers so CSC degree was a natural path for me.

              I dont want to rush into anything but the truth is I really am in need of a job. I have student loans on my head and I want to start living on my own. Uff, its scary but I will do what has to be done whatever it takes.

              I have another question if you dont mind. What are the average salaries for entry jobs and above. Here in NYC it is 60k-70k a year for starters and soft eng make up to 130k. ..

              Also, would you advise against starting own business straight out of college?

              Comment


                #52
                The one piece of advice I am going to give you is that you should not look at your first job as your life long work. Whether you want to or not, you are likely to have several employers over the years. Companies come and go, merge, change directions, and new opportunities elsewhere open up. To stay employed and advance your career you will find changes necessary. You first job is likely to be a starting point. Get in the workforce asap and then look for improvements. The longer you spend time just looking, the more outdated your training becomes.
                You will find a guide to preserving shoulder function @
                http://www.rstce.pitt.edu/RSTCE_Reso...imb_Injury.pdf

                See my personal webpage @
                http://cccforum55.freehostia.com/

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by BSgimp View Post
                  Thank you so much. I have now better understanding of what people want. Its interesting to me. I wish I could find a job in range of my interests. Its a dream to actually do something I enjoy for a living. I always have been into computers so CSC degree was a natural path for me.

                  I dont want to rush into anything but the truth is I really am in need of a job. I have student loans on my head and I want to start living on my own. Uff, its scary but I will do what has to be done whatever it takes.

                  I have another question if you dont mind. What are the average salaries for entry jobs and above. Here in NYC it is 60k-70k a year for starters and soft eng make up to 130k. ..
                  In the bay area it is 70-80 for people right out of college with excellent skills. 130 is no where near the peak in NYC, if you have excellent C++ skills and 10 years experience in the finance industry you can make 250K base plus bonus.

                  Also, would you advise against starting own business straight out of college?
                  Yes. There is more to writing software than knowing how to code and the only way you can learn that is by working with other people who have developed software professionally. Everything from source control, team dynamics (do you pair program, agile, waterfall), how to plan releases, your roadmap, use of tools for continuous integration (I like hudson) are all things you learn working in a real software company.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    What SCIfor55yrs. said!

                    Although it worked differently for me.

                    My degree specialization was in supercomputing, but my first job was in aerospace (where we use small, old processors, partly because they are the ones more likely to be rad-hardened). I remember being worried that I'd never be able to get a job in supercomputing, that I'd be stuck programming satellites.

                    Eventually I did get a job in supercomputing, but it turned out that I liked satellites better, so I came back :-).

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by t8burst View Post
                      ...waterfall....
                      Now see, here's a problem, and the only advice I can give is...run away.

                      FROM WIKIPEDIA:The first formal description of the waterfall model is often cited as a 1970 article by Winston W. Royce,[3] though Royce did not use the term "waterfall" in this article. Royce presented this model as an example of a flawed, non-working model.[4] This, in fact, is how the term is generally used in writing about software developmentā€”to describe a critical view of a commonly used software practice.[5]
                      In other words, projects designed and managed using the waterfall method are always doomed from the beginning. Unfortuneatly, many managers who read the article came away thinking it was a valid management technique because they could assign fixed costs to each of the processes...once the money was spent, the process was done...whether the project worked or not. Ultimately, management became more concerned with not getting blamed for the failure.

                      I agree with SCIfor55yrs that you should expect to change jobs thruout your career. Depending on your first employer, you may be able to do that within the same company. Its a fact of life in companys that are NOT software development companys, that each time the IT/IS Manager changes, the old stuff gets thrown out and new stuff brought in. If you learn how to learn new stuff, you'll have a job with that one company for life. (The point I'm trying to make is learn to understand the concepts, not the just the syntax of a given language....for a simple example, "ADD 1 to I" in Cobol; "I = I +1" in Basic or Fortran; and "I++" in C all mean the same thing. Learn when to use the concept, and then search for the syntax in the environment you're in).

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by willingtocope View Post
                        Yeah, my native tongue is Fortran. (I won't admit to knowing RPG).
                        LOL

                        I programmed in RPG for @12 years. It was the least sexy language around and the most powerful when it came to producing useful business tools in a short time.

                        I found it interesting, later on in my career, when I started consulting and getting to know numerous companies, that Microsoft's Professional Basic language inhabited the same kind of niche. Looks like everyone used it to some extent, but no one wanted to own up to it.

                        And, especially when hardware costs began to diminish relative to programmer costs, RPG became even more viable. I'll bet there are many legacy RPG systems still cranking away out there!

                        And speaking of Legacy systems - a few years ago I was working on a data repository project at a large Pharma company. The idea was to get a handle on the numerous software packages that had been implemented over the years and make sure that all data was accessible through a single point. A noble and herculean effort!
                        There was one old IBM system that employed an old (1960's) text based data base manager that no one had any detailed documentation on. They kept it running because no one knew what would happen if they pulled the plug!

                        I wonder how many similar situations exist out there, especially when you consider the extent of corporate consolidation over the last few decades.


                        PS - Ed Yourdon wrote a few good books regarding the "Decline and Fall" of American programmers back in the mid nineties. He was also famous for some development process work. Might still be interesting reading - ws certainly for me back then.

                        I also found a book titled "Code Complete" by Steve Mcconnell to be very enligtening and helpful in improving my personal approach to sftware development. I see that he has a later addition and a website -

                        http://www.cc2e.com/Default.aspx

                        I highly recommend this!
                        Last edited by garvey; 13 May 2012, 12:58 PM. Reason: additions

                        Comment


                          #57
                          The first RPG code I wrote was used to translate zipcode into latitude and longitude to determine how far a given mailing address was from one of the client's stores. Talk about using a hammer to trim toenails....you can do it, but god, is it painful.

                          And, as far as I'm concerned, Yourdan, Constatine, DeMarco, Sarsen, and Gaines form the basis for all successful modern systems. Designers may never have heard of them, but those guys laid the foundation...

                          Comment


                            #58
                            It's a global labour market

                            We have got significant projects done in the Philipines for our ERP. We have also got coding for our robot lines done in China. In both cases standard was very high and at a considerable cost saving over getting the code done in Australia. We also have a drawing office in Singapore.

                            The reality is that there is competition in the labour market. The Swissair hostess can only live in Switzerland if she marries a pilot as Swissair have to pay market rates. The Qantas budget domestic airline, Jetstar has to employ in New Zealand and their international flights have to be operated by Emirates.

                            As for the drivers on those Chinese PeeCee cards?

                            At least some vendors are nice enough to open source their non viewable drivers. However, some never get rewritten for inclusion in the kernel as no one is wiser after reviewing the released code.

                            I think this comes down to what you write on the purchase order. If they don't deliver they know you won't pay.
                            http://zagam.net/

                            Comment


                              #59
                              There are times when my paranoia gets the best of me, and I inherently mistrust code written in China (and maybe India or Korea). I can't get the thought out of my head that buriied in the piles and piles of code, is a software bomb that will someday go off and render it all useless if not dangerous.

                              As a consultant back in the eighties, my firm got called in to determine why a client's payroll system would not stop issuning checks to a programmer who had been fired by the company. First off, it took them 4 months to notice (nobody every looks at the detail reports, they just glance over the summaries), and once they did, they couldn't figure out how to stop it. It took us several weeks to figure it out...the main program was written in PL/I, but called some assembler to do some strange bonus calculations this company used. He had hidden the code in there. The PL/I had been "peer reviewed", but he was the only assembler coder they had.

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