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Microcyn/Hydrocleanse/Microdox (Hypochlorous acid) Bladder Instillations Mega Thread

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    #31
    Originally posted by Oddity View Post
    Not a clinical trial, no. It’s a retrospective analysis of 12 people. With no control group. Or blinding. Or safety phase. And a 20% margin of error.
    Safety phase for what, Hypochlorous acid 0.02%? It has no toxicilogical effect at that level on anything. Read some SDS of higher percentage solutions, there's no warnings for any exposure.

    Just in case anyone didn't pick up on it, the solution used in the study I referenced is ~2.5x the strength of Microcyn. There were no adverse events reported.

    Also, how exactly would you go about constructing what you are referring to as an RCT for use of Hypochlorous acid as a UTI treatment in our patient population that is 1. Not unbelievably expensive with respect to the the drug 2. One that is actually doable 3. One with enough statistical power (ie enough subjects) 4. One that is ethical and 5. One which controls for the insane amount of confounding variables?

    Outside of a prospective/retrospective case control studies following individuals with recurrent UTIs who use Hypochlorous acid for chemoprophylaxis after treating an infection, that's about all we're going to get in my opinion.

    Just saying it's not an RCT is not good enough. There's plenty of studies that may not be considered "gold standard" but nonetheless give beneficial evidence.



    Originally posted by hammer30 View Post
    Any body had any pain?
    We have messed up sensations to begin with, so it's going to be variable with all of us, but yes I have experienced some burning if I instill too often. If I use it once daily that's what works for me.



    Originally posted by RollingInParadise View Post
    I have been instilling hydrocleanse[microcyn] purchased from the mfr direct for 6 years, at night mixed with gentamicin.. I instill before bed and leave in until next void, i wear an ext cath at night, or next cath when i wake up.
    You could just be wasting money with the Microcyn. Unless you have a gentamicin resistant bug that's being taken care of by the Microcyn, what's the point in using both? You could also be diluting the Microcyn to the level of being useless. Have you tried using just one? There's no way to know which one is giving you any benefit.

    I get the "if it aint broke" thought process, but I'm assuming it's 1 bottle of Hydrocleanse per month which is ~$60. That's $720 per year you might be basically pouring down the drain.
    Last edited by paraparajumper; 22 Sep 2022, 4:47 PM.

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      #32
      Originally posted by paraparajumper View Post
      There's no special reforumulation, it's all the same product, just bottled and marketed for different purposes. The only changes are strength of solution and a small potential adjustment in pH.

      I have no idea what their "stabilization" methods are.

      ​​​​​​
      For people who read that it "migrates" to the colon. It does not, that is just not possible.
      Why should readers believe your claim, as an anonymous person on the internet, that ‘cyn and ‘dox are identical, over a direct statement to the contrary, from the folks who make the product?

      Or, are you agreeing it’s reformulated, but in ways that “don’t matter”, in your opinion?
      "I have great faith in fools; ‘self-confidence’, my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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        #33
        Originally posted by Oddity View Post

        Why should readers believe your claim, as an anonymous person on the internet, that ‘cyn and ‘dox are identical, over a direct statement to the contrary, from the folks who make the product?

        Or, are you agreeing it’s reformulated, but in ways that “don’t matter”, in your opinion?
        Misdirection.

        Am I trying to get people to believe me? Exactly right, you should absolutely not believe a word I said and go do some reading, sift through documents, call companies. That is the smart thing to do.

        Hypochlorous acid is hypochlorous acid. Unless you have some idea how it was "reformulated" for the bladder other than diluting it slightly to a lower percentage, then I'm willing to hear. Across their entire product line and the product line of other HOCL manufacturers it's the exact same active ingredients in slightly differing strengths.

        Sure, label it for skin, or oral health, or whatever you want. It's marketing.

        Comment


          #34
          I’m sorry, but you are overtly asserting several claims, and entirely own the burden of proof. One of which is directly refuted by the manufacturer.

          Asking for evidence of your claim is not misdirection. Either you know, for a fact, and can prove it, or you don’t.

          Whether, or not, I can imagine any other ways a ‘reformulation’ could occur is irrelevant. As is whether, or not, I can imagine any safety concerns. Because I am keenly aware the limits of my imagination are not the limits of reality.

          Although I can imagine a handful of safety related issues…

          (I.e. what happens if a member with an unknown false passage uses this chemical to irrigate? There are no FDA formulation controls on over the counter hypochlorous acid; it could change at any point, any manufacturer. Hypochlorous acid is not all created equally; there are less safe ways of making it, that someone less informed could purchase on the basis of your claim that it’s all exactly the same. Etc.)

          …I am not, have not, will not, enter into an ‘argument’ over the safety or efficacy of any medical treatment, physician guided, or otherwise. Because I am not qualified to do so.

          Here is what I have felt qualified (enough) to do:

          I asserted what the manufacturer states clearly on their product sheet; that ‘Dox is reformulated ‘Cyn.

          I asserted this is not FDA approved.

          I asserted it is foolish to take internal medicine advice, from anonymous non-medical professionals, off the internet.

          I asserted that anyone considering this should do so under the planning and guidance of their physician.

          I have not shared any opinions on the safety or efficacy of this product. Because I am not qualified to do that.

          I have not encouraged others to uptake this protocol by their own volition. Because I am not qualified to do that.

          I want our members to have good information.

          I want our members to be in good health.

          If any of my assertions, for which I logically bear the burden of proof, seem worth contesting, I’d be happy to entertain a rejoinder.

          In the mean time, I encourage everyone to use this resource as a platform for assisting them in having further discussions with their physicians, rather than for advice on how to be your own doctor.


          "I have great faith in fools; ‘self-confidence’, my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

          Comment


            #35
            Where can I purchase this and what’s the average cost per installation?

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Oddity View Post
              I’m sorry, but you are overtly asserting several claims, and entirely own the burden of proof. One of which is directly refuted by the manufacturer.

              Asking for evidence of your claim is not misdirection. Either you know, for a fact, and can prove it, or you don’t.

              Whether, or not, I can imagine any other ways a ‘reformulation’ could occur is irrelevant. As is whether, or not, I can imagine any safety concerns. Because I am keenly aware the limits of my imagination are not the limits of reality.

              Although I can imagine a handful of safety related issues…

              (I.e. what happens if a member with an unknown false passage uses this chemical to irrigate? There are no FDA formulation controls on over the counter hypochlorous acid; it could change at any point, any manufacturer. Hypochlorous acid is not all created equally; there are less safe ways of making it, that someone less informed could purchase on the basis of your claim that it’s all exactly the same. Etc.)

              …I am not, have not, will not, enter into an ‘argument’ over the safety or efficacy of any medical treatment, physician guided, or otherwise. Because I am not qualified to do so.

              Here is what I have felt qualified (enough) to do:

              I asserted what the manufacturer states clearly on their product sheet; that ‘Dox is reformulated ‘Cyn.

              I asserted this is not FDA approved.

              I asserted it is foolish to take internal medicine advice, from anonymous non-medical professionals, off the internet.

              I asserted that anyone considering this should do so under the planning and guidance of their physician.

              I have not shared any opinions on the safety or efficacy of this product. Because I am not qualified to do that.

              I have not encouraged others to uptake this protocol by their own volition. Because I am not qualified to do that.

              I want our members to have good information.

              I want our members to be in good health.

              If any of my assertions, for which I logically bear the burden of proof, seem worth contesting, I’d be happy to entertain a rejoinder.

              In the mean time, I encourage everyone to use this resource as a platform for assisting them in having further discussions with their physicians, rather than for advice on how to be your own doctor.

              I asked you targeted and direct questions, but instead of answering those, you go back to previous posts of mine to pick out something I said to respond to. That is absolutely 1000% misdirection.

              Here’s the thing, your assertions are fine and I agree with them, but your position is very clear from other posts. You’ve tried to shut down this product in every way you could think of. Not FDA approved, reformulated, no gold-standard evidence, and on and on. You want so bad for this not to be good and useful. I haven’t told anyone to partake in it, I’ve shared what I’ve done and provided quite a bit of information. Others have as well.

              By your own position, is MicrocynAH also specifically reformulated for animals? Is the MicrocynAH liquid for dogs and cats different from the one for horses? Did they reformulate every single bottle for wound care, and dermatology, and nasal and eye care, and oral and dental care, and personal decontamination, and surface disinfectants, etc? That’s surely a lot of reformulating across their entire lineup.

              Or, since the EPA governs what Hypohclorous acid can be labeled as disinfectant vs personal use based on strength of solution (% or ppm, look it up), is the most logical explanation that maybe other than slight adjustment to pH since there is a rather narrow window for HOCL to be the predominating form, the only difference is the strength?

              I mean, the labels I’ve compared show the exact same ingredients in the exact same descending order, and the % solution is either exactly the same or slightly different.

              What I said is Hypochlorous acid is hypochlorous acid, that is a statement of fact. It really doesn’t matter if you have a pure substance and it was derived from a “less safe” way. If it’s pure, then it’s the exact same thing as the other one from the “more safe” way. That’s just chemistry.

              I’m pretty sure I was the one in previous posts who told other members to buy from the manufacturer who makes Microdox if they’re going down this path, since trying to make their own could be unsafe. What I would totally be ok with is you deleting my thread from 5-6 months ago asking if people have purchased a Hypochlorous acid generator. A lot of those have been shown to be junk and/or falsely labeled, unless you're going with a high-end $3000+ machine.

              Comment


                #37
                I think we have had sufficient "discussion" and argument here. Closing this thread. (KLD)
                The SCI-Nurses are advanced practice nurses specializing in SCI/D care. They are available to answer questions, provide education, and make suggestions which you should always discuss with your physician/primary health care provider before implementing. Medical diagnosis is not provided, nor do the SCI-Nurses provide nursing or medical care through their responses on the CareCure forums.

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