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Microcyn/Hydrocleanse/Microdox (Hypochlorous acid) Bladder Instillations Mega Thread

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    Microcyn/Hydrocleanse/Microdox (Hypochlorous acid) Bladder Instillations Mega Thread

    We've been talking about it in various threads and thought it's time to open a new one so we can consolidate all the information. There's been lots of questions, and I've also put substantial time combing the literature and calling companies.

    Just putting a feeler out as well: if we were able to secure a wholesale price for this solution, how many people would be interested? I have a few leads. I believe it would come in 1L bottles.

    For those of you just now coming to the conversation, there was a 2021 study of using HOCL in those with neurogenic bladder in the Journal of Neurourology and Urodynamics:
    Attached are the patient and prescribing overview pamphlets for Microdox, the brand name solution produced by Sonoma Pharmaceuticals approved in a number of countries (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, forget the rest) for the adjunct treatment and prevention of UTIs:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	firefox_CPSNiJhop9.png Views:	0 Size:	130.3 KB ID:	2922086


    I have personally found the stuff to be incredibly effective (MicrocynAH (90 ppm) OTC veterinary product by Sonoma) and completely eradicated a longstanding recurrent UTI. I use 60 ml once daily in the evenings as prophylaxis, although I'm trying to find a sweet spot and lower the amount for cost reasons.

    What I do is cath using my Speedicath compact, then twist the bag off the end. I remove the remaining catheter portion from my urethra and pressure fit the catheter tip pistol syringe to the end of it where the bag used to attach. I then reinsert the catheter into my distal urethra, flush a bit of the solution, push it further until resistance at the internet sphincter, flush a little more, then introduce into my bladder and instill the rest.

    I hold for 20 min and then use a new catheter to empty. I rinse the syringe and air dry, using the same one for a week before disposing.


    I also carry around a small 1 ml flip top bottle of the MicrocynAH Hydrogel and utilize that during the day to lubricate my catheters further, which hopefully prevents pushing microbes from my urethra into my bladder.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	firefox_fx68ZImR2d.png Views:	0 Size:	21.5 KB ID:	2922091

    Right before I cath I squeeze my urinary meatus and apply a bit of the hydrogel onto the opening without touching the end to it. While I'm waiting ~30 sec I remove a fresh catheter, apply a few more dollops onto the tip and further up the shaft, then insert into my bladder and cath. Once removed I apply one more dollop onto the end of my penis and pull my pants back up.



    For those living in countries where you are being prescribed Microdox, please use as directed by your doctor.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by paraparajumper; 4 Sep 2022, 9:30 PM.

    #2
    While reading the threads started by CaptGimp there was some mention of retention time in the bladder. It was said by one poster that they limited the dwelling time in the bladder to 5 minutes. Seems there was some reason to believe that the Microcyn solution could migrate into the intestines killing the beneficial bacterial and causing diarrhea. I plan to try this procedure in the near future with my supra pubic. Thank you and CaptGimp for opening this discussion.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by hammer30 View Post
      While reading the threads started by CaptGimp there was some mention of retention time in the bladder. It was said by one poster that they limited the dwelling time in the bladder to 5 minutes. Seems there was some reason to believe that the Microcyn solution could migrate into the intestines killing the beneficial bacterial and causing diarrhea. I plan to try this procedure in the near future with my supra pubic. Thank you and CaptGimp for opening this discussion.
      That just makes absolutely zero sense to me physiologically, but someone else can chime in. Unless you have a direct colovesical fistula which might not even work in that scenario due to gravity and also pressure differentials between the colon and bladder, you'd somehow have to claim Microcyn (which is 0.0090% Hypochlorous acid, we're talking tiny amounts) makes it way out of the urinary bladder lumen, through 4 layers of the bladder wall, through the space between organs (where it'd surely be dispersed), through another 4 layers of the colonic wall (all of these layers are rather impermeable to begin with) in an unchanged state where it then killed off beneficial GI flora.

      I'm willing to bet that's impossible and there's a higher likelihood the individual who experienced that just ate something funny.

      My only other thought is it was a neurogenic cause of diarrhea secondary to the Microcyn use (cross organ sensitization), as the bowel and bladder share some nerves.

      From what I've researched, there's been no reported diarrhea anywhere.
      Last edited by paraparajumper; 2 Sep 2022, 7:41 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        that's what I thought too and I didn't give it that much thought. For me it's just something to be mindful of. However they a gave a plausible? explanation that I wont try to repeat. If you are interested, go back to some of the early threads of CaptGimp.
        After I begin my use of the stuff, I'll limit my own dwelling time to 5 minutes to start with and go form there. If this stuff really works I might try getting a generator.

        Comment


          #5
          That just makes absolutely zero sense to me physiologically, but someone else can chime in.
          If that person isn’t an appropriate medical professional, then don’t listen to them.

          What “makes sense” to laypersons is irrelevant when it comes to internal medicine.

          Only undertake any bladder irrigation procedure under the consultation and direction of your individual doctor(s).
          "I have great faith in fools; ‘self-confidence’, my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

          Comment


          • SCI-Nurse
            SCI-Nurse commented
            Editing a comment
            Ditropan bladder instillations were being recommended and prescribed by our urologists in the 1990s. It was nothing new, and it had gone through several clinical trials. (KLD)

          • Oddity
            Oddity commented
            Editing a comment
            Stephen,

            I absolutely respect an individual’s choice to do whatever they want with their Body. Including dispose of it if they wish. I’ve pumped enough dangerous recreational drugs through my system, over the years, that I’m hardly the picture of pure health and medical rationalism.

            So, sure, sometimes we gotta do what we gotta do. I get that. And sometimes we just WANT to. I certainly resemble that remark. That’s fine, IMO.

            It’s the encouraging of others and the misinformation (“UTI cure”, “Never have a UTI again”, “I trust Carecure more than doctors”, “I did my own research” nonsense, straight from the previous Topic on this subject), that needs to be tempered back to rationalism.

            My push back isn’t solely “on paper”, (or because I’m the one who gets the ‘cease and desists’, or the threats of lawsuit, or the death threats (yep)). It’s because because I don’t want anyone here to be led into something, by our members. medically speaking, without direct consultation, and support, from medical professionals, rather than anonymous characters on the internet with no skin in the game.

            Content posted here can, and does, have “real life” implications.

            (E.g. Heaven forbid someone harm themselves having not understood that not all hypoclorous acid is created equally; that it takes a special manufacturing process to create the safest stable version. Or that the product used abroad (Microdox) has been “reformulated specifically for use in urology”, according to the manufacturer! Or that the “study” being cited doesn’t meet the standard for approving medical treatments in the US? Etc, etc.)

            Regardless of my volunteer status on this website, I am still going to talk about this with my urologist, before doing anything. Perhaps even get a 2nd or 3rd opinion. I try hard to be aware that I do not know what I do not know.

            Edit: I know I’ve already expressed this opinion, but I’m afraid if folks insist on creating redundant threads on this topic, they’re going to have to accept me being a bit of a pedant as well.
            Last edited by Oddity; 4 Sep 2022, 7:54 AM.

          • paraparajumper
            paraparajumper commented
            Editing a comment
            Originally posted by Oddity View Post
            If that person isn’t an appropriate medical professional, then don’t listen to them.
            Mechanistically and anatomically that made no sense to me, but if it was in fact a true side effect from using it then there would have to be an explanation. So I searched and came across the potential mechanism of cross-organ sensitization.

            There's nothing special about Microdox, it's the exact same stuff as Microcyn, same ingredients, same strength. The entire line of Sonoma products are the same formulation in slightly different concentrations (90 ppm, 150 ppm, etc) marketed for different purposes. The pH could be altered slightly but not between the range that's necessary for HOCL to be the predominant form as I laid out in a previous post.

            99.9% of urologists don't have the energy or time to be looking at adjunct treatments for UTI approved in other countries. They just don't. I actually found out about using Microcyn from this site. I did my due diligence and my urologist had absolutely no problem with it.

            I made this new thread and worded it the way I did to steer it away from other posts that were titled in a way that presented it as a cure all. It's not, but I believe it has its place as an adjunct treatment. That's what it's approved for elsewhere, and people are deriving a noticeable benefit from it.

            Money and regulatory hurdles are preventing it from being FDA approved here, I see no other explanation.

            https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...0330005223/en/
            Last edited by paraparajumper; 4 Sep 2022, 10:59 AM.

          #6
          That misses my point, KLD, which was that *I* was never informed about ditropan instillations by my fancy-pants NYC urologist nor my previous even fancier-pantser neurourolgist, who's an internationally acclaimed urologist. I'm not making a claim of being the Neil Armstrong of instilled Ditropan -- but it was a self-discovery that occurred to me independent of any suggestion to me from my medical team.
          Learn more about Jerry G Blaivas, specializing in Urology at the Mount Sinai Health System. Call or book online for an appointment.
          stephen@bike-on.com

          Comment


          • SCI-Nurse
            SCI-Nurse commented
            Editing a comment
            Good for you. Aren't you smart. When did you start using it? I know we discussed it on these forums (SpineWire, etc.) as early as 1997. (KLD)

          #7
          Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
          That misses my point, KLD, which was that *I* was never informed about ditropan instillations by my fancy-pants NYC urologist nor my previous even fancier-pantser neurourolgist, who's an internationally acclaimed urologist. I'm not making a claim of being the Neil Armstrong of instilled Ditropan -- but it was a self-discovery that occurred to me independent of any suggestion to me from my medical team.
          I have many questions.

          I’m mostly curious: what inspired this discovery? Was it a spontaneous idea? What did you know/learn about oral Ditropan before hand? Did you have any conversations with your medical team prior to treating yourself? What is inspired you to take the risk? (Curiosity? Desperation?)

          More broadly: Do you believe this a reliable way to generate consistently positive outcomes, in medicine, for large populations? If their outcomes were your liability, would you publicly encourage others to experiment on themselves with their spontaneous medical treatment ideas?

          "I have great faith in fools; ‘self-confidence’, my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

          Comment


          • stephen212
            stephen212 commented
            Editing a comment
            I am fuzzy on the chronology of all this as it's so many years ago now. I was placed on a dose of oral oxybutynin considerably higher than the maximum suggested amount by Dr. Blaivas (then editor in chief of some prestigious urology journal). I was experiencing most if not all of the well known adverse effects: dry mouth, blurred vision, brain fog. My eureka! moment happened when it occurred to me that if I could limit the exposure of the ditropan/oxy to only my bladder via instillation and derive the maximum benefit without poisoning the rest of my body.

            The goal of my uro (as I suspect it is of most uros) has less to do with keeping patients dry (free of bladder accidents) than maintaining low bladder pressures so that the risk of kidney infection is minimized. And to that extent, the ditropan instillations were a success. My pressures dropped below the level that made an augmentation surgery the next step. Bladder accidents, however, did not suddenly become a thing of the past though their occurrence lessened.

            I was HIGHLY motivated not to have this surgery so, yes, my inspiration was borne of desperation -- the other mother of invention.

            I'm not on an evangelical mission for people to experiment on themselves. I am friends with a women who has a host of chronic conditions resulting from Lyme exposure years ago on top of other serious health challenges. She confronts an indifferent medical establishment (long story) and has buried herself in nutrition research (earning various certificates along the way) and to a large extent has to not only advocate fiercely for herself but has to innovate her own approaches to managing her many symptoms. She's got the brains to do all this work -- she's quite smart -- so not everyone is equipped and motivated to put in the time. Bottom line: medicine doesn't have all the answers (an understatement) and patients are quite frequently better informed about their bodies than their doctors and are more motivated to innovate.
            Last edited by stephen212; 4 Sep 2022, 3:16 PM.

          • stephen212
            stephen212 commented
            Editing a comment
            On a not entirely unrelated note, none of my urologists ever mentioned penile vibratory stimulation as a possible method to allow me to become a father. I learned about it from a Spinal Extra (now New Mobility) article profiling Dr. Mitch Tepper where he described his experience of becoming a father and discussed PVS as the means that allowed that. I was 14 years post injury at the time and had not ejaculated since my injury. Lo and behold after reading that article and using a home vibrator I already had, I used the technique Mitch described and my kid is now 23 years old. What Mitch described in the article was the equivalent of a message board posting. Yes, he wasn't sounding the trumpet that everyone reading it should go out and try it for themselves and that if they were interested in exploring the technique they should consult their doc. But the *only* point I'm making here are the important discoveries that we are introduced to from our peers, not our doctors.

          #8
          This is just one patient testimonial, starts at 3 minutes:

          Comment


          • SCI-Nurse
            SCI-Nurse commented
            Editing a comment
            Perhaps you are too young to remember that thalidomide was approved for use in most European countries and in Canada in the late 1950s/early 1960s, but not in the USA. In Germany it was available without a prescription. The FDA has stricter criteria for approval off drugs than any country in the world. (KLD)

          • paraparajumper
            paraparajumper commented
            Editing a comment
            Sure, I appreciate regulation and the rigor of scientific approval, but my point was you seemed to immediately disregard the video. Science isn't a cudgel used to smack down anything that doesn't fit a single regulatory body's guidelines. Science is a process.

            For that man, he was prescribed that solution, by a doctor. His life seems to be better because of it. He's been able to decrease his antibiotic use and remain UTI free.

            Although it's not FDA approved in the US yet, a lot of people who are using identical solutions OTC are getting similar benefit, including me.

            My point is, if Microdox became available through prescription in the US tomorrow, would it magically change from quackery to science? We both know that's a no. I realize it takes time, and you can't recommend things.

            We'll see more and more of its use in the coming years in the neurogenic bladder population, especially with the rise of antimicrobial resistance, I guarantee it.

          • stephen212
            stephen212 commented
            Editing a comment
            Based on the content presented in these recent CC threads, I've been trialing Microcyn. I have a visit coming up this week with my internist and will request a urine culture. If my colonization count is demonstrably lower -- or gone altogether -- I will be persuaded to continue. This hoped-for result of course can't offer proof of Microcyn's long-term safety, but it will be a starting point for further discussion with my new urologist later this month.

          #9
          KLD, the thalidomide example might better have been used an example to the other side of the argument, here was a drug that had horrible side effects and it was It WAS taken and prescribed here in USA. Had the people who suffered from the side effects taken it based on hear say then..... it was science then.
          This is all beside the point. I am totally in agreement with Paraparajumper in his using experience of others to benefit from. I mean, that's the point of these forums, is it not?

          Comment


          • SCI-Nurse
            SCI-Nurse commented
            Editing a comment
            Thalidomide was never prescribed or provided in the USA. USA women who took it got it while visiting Europe or Canada during their pregnancy. The FDA protected us from this drug, which ironically is now approved for cancer and HIV and leprosy treatment, but only for those men and women who do not plan a pregnancy. (KLD)

          #10
          Originally posted by hammer30 View Post
          If this stuff really works I might try getting a generator.
          Please just steer clear of the generators and at least buy from a reputable company who has the infrastructure to produce a clean and consistent pre-made HOCL if you're going to go down this path as well. I thought about a generator but the products are all made in china, pretty cheap in actuality, posts from a few chemists talked about how it wasn't exactly up to snuff, some reviews about how some of them were labeled as hypochlorous acid generators but were hypochlorite (bleach) generators.

          You'll be utilizing test strips with varying gradations in color to assess free chlorine content. You'd have to make a fresh batch every day it seemed. Way too much could go wrong in my opinion.

          I considered the options and decided I might as well spend a little more to get the equivalent product from the same manufacturer that produces Microdox.

          Comment


            #11
            Is this stuff the same as Microcyn? Electrochemically activated solution. Seems like they have some good results with it.
            https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/nau.24745
            The bottom line is seems like I am going to start using Microcyn. I have seen a new urologist today and he recommended saline irrigation. I guess if that doesn't work I'll start doing installation of Mycrocyn.
            The way I look at it what are we stuck with. Prophylactic antibiotics that we only get resistant to.
            Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.
            Bob Seger

            Comment


              #12
              Originally posted by tvot View Post
              Is this stuff the same as Microcyn? Electrochemically activated solution. Seems like they have some good results with it.
              https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/nau.24745
              The bottom line is seems like I am going to start using Microcyn. I have seen a new urologist today and he recommended saline irrigation. I guess if that doesn't work I'll start doing installation of Mycrocyn.
              The way I look at it what are we stuck with. Prophylactic antibiotics that we only get resistant to.
              Correct, that is the study I linked to and provided in my original post.

              They utilized a solution from the company Protonomed since the study was conducted in a university hospital in Bonn, Germany. The active ingredient is the same.

              Comment


                #13
                Originally posted by paraparajumper View Post

                Correct, that is the study I linked to and provided in my original post.

                They utilized a solution from the company Protonomed since the study was conducted in a university hospital in Bonn, Germany. The active ingredient is the same.
                WOW! I guess I didn't bother to click on your link.

                Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.
                Bob Seger

                Comment


                  #14
                  Promised follow-up to my experience of Microcyn. I received my first order of MicrocynAH (ordered from Amazon) less than a month ago and have used it thus far no more than a few times per week. The amount I've instilled has ranged from 20 ml to 40 ml per use. I do not retain in my bladder for a set amount of time; typically I keep it in until my next catheterization. I instilled it this past Friday a few hours before an appointment with my internist who ran several labs including a requested urine culture. The results (see attachment) mark the first time in recent memory that I did NOT have a quantifiable amount of bacterial colonization!

                  My bladder seems to tolerate Microcyn perfectly well. No side effects to report.

                  My plan going forward is to continue using Microcyn prophylactically 2x-3x/week.
                  Attached Files
                  stephen@bike-on.com

                  Comment


                    #15
                    That is fantastic news Stephen, I would say that's a win-win.
                    Sales@rollinginparadise.com

                    Comment

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