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  • microcyn thread summary?

    Would anyone be willing to write up a summary of this thread? I got lost around post #4,721. ;-) Seriously, it would be GREAT if someone could give a couple of paragraph overview - e.g. what to buy, the top couple of techniques people have tried and/or had success with by cath type (e.g. sp, i/o, foley), and things to be careful of, etc.

    Chad has a wicked bad case of drug-resistant pseudomonas and I tried microcyn once without success, but after reading the thread a bit more, I may need to approach it differently. Just wondered if anyone here has followed the epic journey of that epic thread and could possibly summarize it. Non-epicly!

    Anyone? Anyone?
    Wife of Chad (C4/5 since 1988), mom of a great teenager

  • #2
    ZA--I remember your post very well, it was June 15.

    Failure here.

    Tested via C&S, had drug-resistant pseudomonas. Then did microcyn trial, 2x a day of the following (noting he uses suprapub cath):

    fully emptied bladder using first pressure and then syringe to draw out last urine and gunk, then installed ~60 mg of microcyn. Next, capped off suprapub cath to let sit for 15 mins. As it sat, I rolled him around and around to allow it to coat the bladder. After 15 mins, uncapped and allowed it to drain, along with urine into the bag. Also sprayed it on the stoma daily to cleanse the skin.

    After two weeks of this, he still had drug-resistant pseudomonas via C&S. I was so hoping this would be a miracle, but alas, it wasn't. And it was an expensive trial, took about $100 worth of stuff for that trial.
    Shamrock 88 also had real trouble getting rid of resistant pseudomonas with the regular formula Vetericyn -- OIS80, (the same as regular Microcyn). After much effort he cleared, but it came back on him and even though the Vetericyn seemed to supress outright infection, he was still colonized. He then upgraded to the stronger formula--Vetericyn VF -- OIS150. He used it once a day for an hour at a time, and got diarrhea, but eventually cleared the pseudomonas. He then put in about 30 cc per day to stay clear.

    The research I turned up clearly indicated that OIS80 (regular Vetericyn and regular Microcyn) has a log reduction of less than 3 when up against resistant pseudomonas biofilm--not so hot. You have to bump the formula up to OIS125 or higher to really nail the pseudomonas.

    If you decide to try the stronger formula, watch out for bowel problems. They might not happen but you should be prepared to cope with them. It could be diahrrea or constipation.

    In my opinion, treatment should be done twice a day, not once. Loreo mentioned that she needed to do it a second time, right after the first treatment, in order to clear her urine. Dr. Bongionvanni also stressed doing it twice a day. Ragersilver did it twice a day for ten days and came up completely clear. His bug was also resistant.

    If you do the treatment twice a day, I wouldn't keep it in too long. And you might try some saline rinses first to clear out some of the gunk so the VVF can make better contact.

    The people who have gotten the best results have experimented to find out what works for them. That's what it takes.

    Hopefully others will come forward with more suggestions.

    Hang in there gal.
    Last edited by Leila; 12-09-2010, 10:06 PM.
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    • #3
      started using vetericyn 2 weeks ago, I use it as cath lube for intermittent catheterization. No more incontinence, cath volumes are way up. I was really wary to try it because there's a picture of a yak or something on the bottle, but figured animals are mammals just like me. urine is clear, no more stink pee. haven't done the instilling yet, but don't feel I have to with the results I've had already. I'm a believer, fuck what any doctor sez.

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      • #4
        As Leila has suggested hit it hard with the stronger VF formula for at least 10 days straight twice a day (60ml at a time) and I left it in for no longer than 5 minutes to avoid bowel problems.Some people do this treatment in conjuntion with a double course of the correct antibiotic which is not a bad idea but of course with resistant bugs this can be difficult,if you find symptoms and urine have cleared after 10 days only then think about going back to once a day.I know it may seem an expensive option but believe me constant antibiotic treatment is not the answer,good luck and please keep us posted

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tooley View Post
          started using vetericyn 2 weeks ago, I use it as cath lube for intermittent catheterization. No more incontinence, cath volumes are way up. I was really wary to try it because there's a picture of a yak or something on the bottle, but figured animals are mammals just like me. urine is clear, no more stink pee. haven't done the instilling yet, but don't feel I have to with the results I've had already. I'm a believer, fuck what any doctor sez.
          Hi Tooley,

          Like you, I intermittently cath. Once our urinary tract is bacteria-free/uninfected there's no need to instill any antiseptic in our bladder. We just need to keep the bacteria from getting in there in the first place. I still use hydrogen peroxide instead of Microcyn/Vetercyn because it's much cheaper. With a towel draped across my thighs and under my scrotum to absorb the over-spray and to hold the urinal in place I squirt the HP about 5 times. Like twice, at first using my thumb and forefinger to keep my meatus closed, I rinse off my glans. Then after that, using my thumb and forefinger, I squeeze open my meatus/urethra and with medium pressure I squirt the HP inside there. Most of it squirts back out but I imagine it's getting in there an inch or two. So I'm not only killing the bacteria but I'm flushing it out too. I use a lot since HP is so cheap but if you're careful you can use less of the Vetercyn and get the same results.

          I don't use lube anymore either. I store my catheter in a bottle of 3% HP and that's enough to get the catheter to slide in there. Been doing it for 6 years now (I think) and everything seems fine. Nothing like uninfected, normal smelling and shimmering urine! I'm terrible... I've been using the same damn catheter for... I don't even remember.... maybe 6 months now!

          Another advantage of being uninfected/non-colonized is the lack of shrinkage. No more shrunken scrotum/testicles and penis brought about by infection and/or colonization.

          Glad to hear you're having great success with the Vetericyn. Just don't start barking like a dog or meowing like a cat. Hopefully they'll get the human version (Microcyn or Dermacyn or whatever it's labeled) on the market soon and at a cheaper price.

          A couple years ago I bought 4 bottles of Vetercyn from the California Supply Company. Instead of squirting HP on and in my penis with an old 13 oz Palmolive dish detergent bottle I just sprayed the Vetercyn in there using its trigger. The sprayer bottle worked fine. It's got some sharp edges on the sprayer tip but I was careful and all was fine.

          Bob.
          "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria

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          • #6
            I am about to try vetericyn vf for the first time. I just ordered it today. I have an SP cath, and have had issues with recurring resistant infections. I am allergic or resistant to all oral antibiotics except levaquin (and once had a UTI resistant to that). I've tried using high doses of vitC before, I've tried using mannose-D (and it helped some but not longterm), and I am nervous about using antibiotics so much when I know I already am colonized with bacteria that are resistant to most.

            I am currently experiencing insanely strong & putrid-smelling urine. I had zero other symptoms of a UTI (which normally I have other symptoms), so I didn't think this was an infection. Now after another day of sitting here pushing fluids, my urine has become cloudy, the smell is stronger (tho I don't know how much stronger it could possibly get!), and my stoma site is very irritated. So it really does appear to be an infection. I called in to my PCP so I can drop off a sample for UA & C&S. I also treated the stoma area with hydrogen peroxide.

            I read through many pages of the minocyn thread link (it was posted in a reply to my smelly urine thread), and I really was encouraged by what I read there. So I am hoping that I too will have good results after trying this. Thanks to whomever posted the details about using it with an SP cath. I was a little unsure at first, because most of the reading discussed how to use it for intermittent catheters, not with SP caths.

            You guys are the best for this information!!! If anyone else has tips or advice, I would love hear to it! And a summary of treatment protocols using vetericyn for the various types of cathing (and for applying to male versus female anatomy) would really be great!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ragersilver View Post
              As Leila has suggested hit it hard with the stronger VF formula for at least 10 days straight twice a day (60ml at a time) and I left it in for no longer than 5 minutes to avoid bowel problems.Some people do this treatment in conjuntion with a double course of the correct antibiotic which is not a bad idea but of course with resistant bugs this can be difficult,if you find symptoms and urine have cleared after 10 days only then think about going back to once a day.I know it may seem an expensive option but believe me constant antibiotic treatment is not the answer,good luck and please keep us posted
              OK, I ordered two Vetericyn VF 16 oz bottles, it will arrive in a few days. Chad is currently experiencing an acute flare of the pseudomonas (vs the chronic colonization), with the full on gunky, stinky pee and feeling like crap. His doc gave him an oral abx and an IM abx (I administer it at home), so by the time the VF arrives, he'll have had a few days on the abx.

              I am going to do exactly as ragersilver says above, plus the suggestion of flushing the bladder first to remove gunky crap to allow the VF to coat the bladder more efficiently, for at least the first few applications.

              I hope that this works .... wish me luck.
              Wife of Chad (C4/5 since 1988), mom of a great teenager

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              • #8
                ZA--I do wish you luck--but more than that I hope that you remain persistant. Your husband's pseudomonas is clearly moving in the direction of full resistance and that makes it a bitch to conquer. I know it's expensive, but you might want more on hand than two bottles. Two bottles will give you seven days of treatment, and no one knows if that will be enough. And if he does clear, you'll need to keep protecting him or the pseudomonas might just come right on back. It's incredibly tenacious. I think you should also have the regular Vetericyn on hand--you may want to switch to that at some point.

                I buy four bottles at a time from www.petstruly.com and I pay 123.96 for the regular Vet, a little more for the VF, but not much.

                The microbe will fight back to try to retain its turf. You're going to have to be more tenacious than it is.

                GOOD LUCK!!!!!
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                • #9
                  Hi Retto,

                  Originally posted by Retto
                  I also treated the stoma area with hydrogen peroxide.
                  Hydrogen peroxide may be a bit harsh for your stoma area. Microcyn or Vetercyn etc. would be a much better choice for any area like your stoma site that's irritated. HP can kill good cells (fibroblasts) and you don't want to do that. An occasional squirt of HP probably won't hurt anything but try and stay away from its use on sensitive areas.

                  Originally posted by Wikipedia
                  A fibroblast is a type of cell that synthesizes the extracellular matrix and collagen,[1] the structural framework (stroma) for animal tissues, and plays a critical role in wound healing. Fibroblasts are the most common cells of connective tissue in animals.
                  Originally posted by Retto
                  If anyone else has tips or advice, I would love hear to it! And a summary of treatment protocols using vetericyn for the various types of cathing (and for applying to male versus female anatomy) would really be great!
                  Just a quick note especially for those women who use an indwelling Foley catheter via the urethra. It may be easier to spray down there in the "nether regions" by holding the spray bottle upside down. To do this cut off the tube that's inside the bottle with a clean/sterile pair of scissors. Um, it may come off by just pulling and twisting on it... I don't know.

                  I cath intermittently so don't know much about SPs etc.

                  Good luck,

                  Bob.

                  ETA- Hi Leila/Susanne!
                  Last edited by bob clark; 01-10-2011, 06:03 PM. Reason: To say "Hi".
                  "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria

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                  • #10
                    there are so many different types of vetricyn, gels and others, confusing


                    amazon carries many different brands and suppliers. i ordered "Vetericyn Wound & Infection Treatment and Puracyn Wound Care 8 Ounce, figure it is good to have available and on hand
                    cauda equina

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leila View Post
                      ZA--I do wish you luck--but more than that I hope that you remain persistant. Your husband's pseudomonas is clearly moving in the direction of full resistance and that makes it a bitch to conquer. I know it's expensive, but you might want more on hand than two bottles. Two bottles will give you seven days of treatment, and no one knows if that will be enough. And if he does clear, you'll need to keep protecting him or the pseudomonas might just come right on back. It's incredibly tenacious. I think you should also have the regular Vetericyn on hand--you may want to switch to that at some point.

                      I buy four bottles at a time from www.petstruly.com and I pay 123.96 for the regular Vet, a little more for the VF, but not much.

                      The microbe will fight back to try to retain its turf. You're going to have to be more tenacious than it is.

                      GOOD LUCK!!!!!
                      How funny, I bought mine from petstruly after searching high and low for the best price. If Chad can tolerate the treatment, I will purchase two more bottles because as someone else noted, the price of not treating with VF is also substantial (doctor co-pays (which are HUGE for us to a specialist, our insurance keeps getting sh*ttier and sh*ttier each year), drug co-pays, costs to frequently change the catheter and bags, etc etc). So I'm trying to keep that in mind too. Thanks for the support, I will for sure keep this thread updated.
                      Wife of Chad (C4/5 since 1988), mom of a great teenager

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                      • #12
                        In my case vetericyn has bought me peace of mind.Knowing that i have control over infections without having to resort to antibiotics.....it's almost priceless in that sense.

                        Microcyn wound gel is now covered by medicare.Hopefuly,liquid microcyn will also be covered soon.In the mean time this is the one "supplement "I buy without fail each month.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nancygail View Post
                          In my case vetericyn has bought me peace of mind.Knowing that i have control over infections without having to resort to antibiotics.....it's almost priceless in that sense.

                          Microcyn wound gel is now covered by medicare.Hopefuly,liquid microcyn will also be covered soon.In the mean time this is the one "supplement "I buy without fail each month.
                          Evidently, Microcyn has had a name change to Puracyn OTC (over the counter-available without a doctors prescription) under distribution by a company called Innovacyn. Innovacyn distributes both Puracyn and Vetercyn/Vetercyn VF under two arms of the company, one for human use, one for animal use. Once a substance becomes available over the counter, I believe there is little hope that medicare or private insurance will extend coverage for it.

                          All the best,
                          GJ

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                          • #14
                            reimbursement for Microcyn

                            It is the 500 ml bottles of Microcyn that are up for reimbursement. A prescription is required for this size. It is exactly twice the size of the regular Microcyn OTC and Puracyn. It is not available from Innovacyn, but directly from Oculus and also Metromedical online. Doctors ordering litre containers will also be reimbursed once it clears. I'm not sure how it's going to work when it happens, but we'll probably have to have our doctors stock our pharmacy and then write us a prescription for it. I think that's how it's going to work.
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                            • #15
                              any quads with indwelling using this? how exactly do you use it/extract it? Do you need to dilute it? I just ordered some veterecyn online and will have my father help administer it.

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