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    #31
    Originally posted by Lee1 View Post
    His knees are suspension... He wouldnt want to make some of those jumps sitting on the seat!
    I know that the suspension there was Mac`s arms and legs, i was just jocking.


    Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post

    @Toto - I'm kind of surprised that you seem like you're not a fan of suspension? I saw your posts on the carbon fiber by strips seat and you seemed really excited about going off curbs and so on with the suspension that modification provided.

    ....
    Yes i like it, but i don`t think is something necessary for a daily chair, If i have to do a suspension chair for some xtreme guys i will do a full weld frame with a good suspension sistem, of course i could get some use of your chair jumping some stuff for do a cool video, but in reality in my daily use i only go up&down some little curbs as much with 6"-8", so with my seat i have more than enough.

    Btw, my suspension seat by strips was an accident.
    When i order my first Oracing i really hate their sling seat tension by strips, because i had to be tighting them every few days, now they have improve with the strips and buckles and are better.

    So i thought in change it for a CF solid seat pan, and i thought: I`m going to add around 1lbs to my chair changing the seat, what i could do for add less weight? well i`m going to do it by strips for have it lighter and see what happens, and bingo!!!
    i discovered that they had some flex that work like a little suspension, and there was when born carbon fiber suspension seat

    Don`t doubt that i like suspension too, but i`m not a really fan of the Icon, but don`t doubt that i wish you all the best with your project.
    Last edited by totoL1; 23 Jul 2011, 6:18 AM.

    Comment


      #32
      No one I know has tried genuine suspension on a wheelchair unless they've ridden a Marvel, Shockwave, or other chair I don't know about with a fully adjustable air shock.

      Not entirely sure where the negative opinions come from, then, other than rumor/word of mouth.

      Things that add bounce don't add suspension. Suspension is deceleration of force, and it requires a medium to transfer the force into heat through. Springs just bounce. CF strips just bounce. Froglegs elastomers just bounce. There is no deceleration occurring, and this has been proven in a research study. Even the XTR, while better, pales in comparison as it's shock was/is non-adjustable. You need preload, compression and rebound dampening in order to setup suspension to actually work at low velocity.

      And work well, it does! Much less back pain and fatigue and stress on the chair itself.

      I'm a fan, so long as it comes without too much weight.
      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

      Comment


        #33
        disclosure: I'm privy to some information b/c I've been helping Jeff w/ creating the order form and related material.

        That said, re: weight:

        The 2 shocks that Icon currently offers are 0.46lb each. (Fox Float RP23, Float R)

        The FEA and other engineering done by Multimatic in one of their proposed designs of componentry reduced the overall mass of the chair by over 4.5lbs. The lengthy process of getting to the production stage is going to be well worth it.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by DaleB View Post
          CF strips just bounce. .
          Have you tried them for can say that?

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by canuck View Post
            There are too many small ones on my ZRA that's for sure, but it's also the most solid and maintence free chair I have ever owned. I've had it for it for 7 years and it's still solid as a rock. The A4 at 4.5 years was garbage. I was in a hurry when I wrote that remark about liability, should have said safety concern instead.

            Scott I've been wheeling for 30 years I do have a fairly good idea of the issues that crop up. I also know a lot of people neglect there chair maintence.
            Roger that.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
              Have you tried them for can say that?
              I've never tried the CF strips, but if you want to classify them as suspension, they're basically similar in function to leaf springs.

              Shocks offer dampening that such "springs" can't provide.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
                Have you tried them for can say that?

                No. But I know what suspension is and what it isn't. It is the transfer of momentum into heat. Where does the momentum go in the CF seat pan? It dissipates as it flexes up and down, through the CF itself. This is bouncing. A suspension accepts the initial momentum, decelerates it, then follows up with dampening the rebound on the way back up. It only goes down once, and gently returns to neutral.

                Here is a study.
                "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by -scott- View Post
                  I've never tried the CF strips, but if you want to classify them as suspension, they're basically similar in function to leaf springs.

                  Shocks offer dampening that such "springs" can't provide.
                  A single leaf isn't a leaf spring, technically. The stack and the ratio of size between leaves creates a decelerating effect. Not a good one, mind you, but for 100 year old technology it's not bad.
                  "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                  "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by DaleB View Post
                    No. .
                    ok, so speak about thing that you have tried, i could clean my arse with the teory.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by DaleB View Post
                      A single leaf isn't a leaf spring, technically. The stack and the ratio of size between leaves creates a decelerating effect. Not a good one, mind you, but for 100 year old technology it's not bad.
                      I don`t have springs, and 100 year ago CF wasn`t exist, i remember you that you are not in a Hammer, so your teory of bounce is just a teory that is not really important for a fucking wheelchair.

                      Anyway looks very clear that you and scott are going to work for Jeff, so you will have to speak about how fantastic is the Icon.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by DaleB View Post
                        A single leaf isn't a leaf spring, technically. The stack and the ratio of size between leaves creates a decelerating effect. Not a good one, mind you, but for 100 year old technology it's not bad.
                        point taken. you know what I mean though.

                        Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
                        I don`t have springs, and 100 year ago CF wasn`t exist, i remember you that you are not in a Hammer, so your teory of bounce is just a teory that is not really important for a fucking wheelchair.

                        Anyway looks very clear that you and scott are going to work for Jeff, so you will have to speak about how fantastic is the Icon.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by DaleB View Post
                          Things that add bounce don't add suspension. Suspension is deceleration of force, and it requires a medium to transfer the force into heat through. Springs just bounce. CF strips just bounce. Froglegs elastomers just bounce. There is no deceleration occurring, and this has been proven in a research study. Even the XTR, while better, pales in comparison as it's shock was/is non-adjustable. You need preload, compression and rebound dampening in order to setup suspension to actually work at low velocity.
                          This is a good, technical, engineering explanation of suspension versus bounce. As a Licensed Professional Engineer, I appreciate it. Thanks.

                          Originally posted by DaleB View Post
                          Excellent paper! I saved it for future reference.
                          Last edited by chasmengr; 23 Jul 2011, 11:44 AM.
                          Chas
                          TiLite TR3
                          Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                          I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                          "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                          <
                          UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
                            I don`t have springs, and 100 year ago CF wasn`t exist, i remember you that you are not in a Hammer, so your teory of bounce is just a teory that is not really important for a fucking wheelchair.

                            Anyway looks very clear that you and scott are going to work for Jeff, so you will have to speak about how fantastic is the Icon.
                            Wow, you need to take a deep breath. True, CF isn't 100 years old, but the physics of a leaf spring, which is what Scott and Dale are talking about certainly is. Notice that I said the physics of the CF spring, not theory. Drop a 100 Gram weight on a strip of CF and watch what happens to it - it will bounce. That's physics, not theory.

                            How is you working for Oracing any different? I've seen no disrespect of you for touting their products. You need to give others the same treatment you have gotten.
                            Don - Grad Student Emeritus
                            T3 ASIA A 27 years post injury

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Donno View Post
                              Wow, you need to take a deep breath. True, CF isn't 100 years old, but the physics of a leaf spring, which is what Scott and Dale are talking about certainly is. Notice that I said the physics of the CF spring, not theory. Drop a 100 Gram weight on a strip of CF and watch what happens to it - it will bounce. That's physics, not theory.

                              How is you working for Oracing any different? I've seen no disrespect of you for touting their products. You need to give others the same treatment you have gotten.
                              The Donno Lama has spoken.
                              stephen@bike-on.com

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I probably should have used the term "trampoline" instead of "spring."

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